The End Of America ?????

Posted by: Fluffi

The End Of America ????? - 06/07/20 06:10 AM

Once upon a time, I used this forum to debate with people. My political inclinations meant that I fundamentally disagreed with some of you (particularly some of the Anericans).
However, I NEVER thought of your country as a "failed-state"

Now I am not so sure.


I assume that we have all seen the videos of police officers who have removed their name-tags, and who have their badge number covered with tape.
I also assume that we have all seen the videos of armed paramilitary units on your streets - with mis-matched uniforms, no name tags, and no unit insignia.


What has your country become?


If this footage had been recorded in Lagos, or Kabul, or Damascus, then "America" would be be screaming about 3rd-world dictatorships opressing their civilian population.
But these were not filmed in Nigeria / Afghanistan / etc... they were filmed in the US.


America has just failed the "non-fascist dictatorship" test; and done it the global stage.


I appreciate that, as a Brit, I have no stake in this game, but as much as I respect your absolute right to your political opinions, please, for the sake of your country, get rid of Trump.


It will be interesting to see if anyone other than Zin replies to this.
It will be interesting to see if anyone chooses to support your governments' actions.


Please folks, think about what may be to come.
Posted by: Sawo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/07/20 06:21 AM

Nation has as good government as nation deserves...
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/07/20 07:48 AM

@ Sawo....

I don't know if your past "kill Jews" posts were serious or whether you were just trying to annoy people on the internet.
You know what - I don't care.

As one professional to another: I believe that you are a soldier; I believe that you will fight to defend your country, but I don't think you would remove your ID, and stand in battle-dress in Helsinki, simply to threaten other Finns.

I guess that is the difference between people like you / me and the idiot Americans we have all seen recently.
Posted by: Sawo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/07/20 12:22 PM

Well, I dislike everyone who label themselves other than predatory mammal, equally. But I do dislike everyone who label themselves religiously bit more, because, infact, religions are the reason why everything is generally fucked up.

Only thing I see in USA, is same old same old what will not change, ever. So they can have it, and keep it in there. Their system, their will.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/07/20 09:10 PM

We haven't failed yet... But we're working on it. Our media has eroded our morals.

People who have never known true suffering feel so bad for others that they support some seriously stupid shit.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

They are actually trying to defund the police. I say give it to them. They won't understand until it's done. Locally... let them learn, and let others learn from it.

If Trump loses this election... I support a war against the United States. We've lost our way. If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/10/20 10:05 AM

I Like Ike
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/10/20 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


You and I have debated / argued on this forum for year.

I have never pretended to be anything other than a liberal, left-wing Brit, and you have never been anyting but polite in your responses to me; but sorry mate, if you are suggesting that.....

1)The Trump-appointed AG says on national television that the secret service ordered Tump into the bunker for his safety: he was lying

2)The 75-year-old guy in Buffalo was an ANTIFA agitator, trying to shut-down police communications is true

3)A reporter from an independant American news station took a discharged cannister of CS gas to a protest in DC, just so he could take a photo of it to discredit the government

4) Given that Trump is openly anti-ANTIFA, and given that ANTIFA is an abbreviation of "Anti Fascist"... both he (and his supporters) have proven themselves to be "Pro Fascist"


I am genuinely sorry to have to write this post. I have enjoyed our debates in the past - you have always appeared educated and eloquent.

I will continue to debate with you, but if you rely on "If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still" as your defence, then please don't expect a response.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/10/20 04:43 PM

Quote:
4) Given that Trump is openly anti-ANTIFA, and given that ANTIFA is an abbreviation of "Anti Fascist"... both he (and his supporters) have proven themselves to be "Pro Fascist"


You are so fucking stupid it should literally reverberate pain through your skull to have written that.

Hey Fluffi, I'm a member of anti-scrotumlickers. I don't like you. That makes you a scrotumlicker by default. Why do you lick scrotums?
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/10/20 04:45 PM

I'm part of anti-poopy-buttholes, I've declared you to be a poopy-butthole. Why can't you wipe? Are you disabled?
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/10/20 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


You and I have debated / argued on this forum for year.

I have never pretended to be anything other than a liberal, left-wing Brit, and you have never been anyting but polite in your responses to me; but sorry mate, if you are suggesting that.....

1)The Trump-appointed AG says on national television that the secret service ordered Tump into the bunker for his safety: he was lying

I don't know... Don't care.

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2)The 75-year-old guy in Buffalo was an ANTIFA agitator, trying to shut-down police communications is true

Yes... I believe that to be true. Kind of... It's not to shut down police communications, it's to get to where they can hear said police communications. All the police has to do is change channels, thus... They really can't shut down police communications.

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3)A reporter from an independant American news station took a discharged cannister of CS gas to a protest in DC, just so he could take a photo of it to discredit the government

No idea what you are talking about.

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4) Given that Trump is openly anti-ANTIFA, and given that ANTIFA is an abbreviation of "Anti Fascist"... both he (and his supporters) have proven themselves to be "Pro Fascist"

Just because people say they are something, does not mean they are what they say. Their actions define who and what they are, not what they say about themselves. Antifa is not a good thing.

Edit: Or more to the point... I tend to ignore what people say about themselves, when their actions support something entirely different. /Edit



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I am genuinely sorry to have to write this post. I have enjoyed our debates in the past - you have always appeared educated and eloquent.

I will continue to debate with you, but if you rely on "If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still" as your defence, then please don't expect a response.

I can't support Biden... If he actually becomes president... I won't do the scream of the SJW... But ... This country is in for a world of hurt.


Posted by: Ellisande

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/16/20 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump loses this election... I support a war against the United States. We've lost our way. If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


I pop in and out of here to see if any of you fuckers have gotten sick. Does this quote mean you support Civil War if your boy loses?
Posted by: Ellisande

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/16/20 11:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellisande
Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump loses this election... I support a war against the United States. We've lost our way. If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


I pop in and out of here to see if any of you fuckers have gotten sick. Does this quote mean you support Civil War if your boy loses?

Honestly, I should expect nothing less out of your cornfield ass. But for a moment I thought you were an independent thinker and not a MAGAt.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/19/20 02:39 AM

Ah yes, the independent thinkers like "person who repeats the insult du jour as if it were original"
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/19/20 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellisande
Originally Posted By: Ellisande
Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump loses this election... I support a war against the United States. We've lost our way. If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


I pop in and out of here to see if any of you fuckers have gotten sick. Does this quote mean you support Civil War if your boy loses?

Honestly, I should expect nothing less out of your cornfield ass. But for a moment I thought you were an independent thinker and not a MAGAt.

You are free to think whatever you like. I don't like what Trump says anymore than most of the people on the left.

However... I don't take people for what they say. I look at what they do. Trump is one of the best presidents we've ever had.

Build a wall: He did it, or tried damn hard to... I didn't think he would do it. I thought it was metaphorical. No.. Dude did it.

Bring manufacturing (jobs) back: He did it. Have to go through some hardship.. But he did it. It's kinda low now, but can't blame Trump on that one.

Impose tariffs on goods made in China and Mexico: Which actually means getting rid of NAFTA. I absolutely agreed with that.

Iran Nuclear deal: Never should have been a part of it in the first place. Just like I don't believe in subsidies for farmers, I don't believe in paying a country to not do something.

It goes on and on. How Trump says things, sucks. He's a blowhard with an ego the size of Texas... But he gets shit done.

What's Biden? What the hell is his political platform he's running on? If he gets into office his job is over. He didn't say he's going to do a damn thing that I'm aware of that Trump isn't already addressing.

I DON'T LIKE SUPPORTING TRUMP. It sucks. GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION.

Tulsi Gabbard... I would have voted for her in a heartbeat. I GAVE MONEY TO Andrew Yang... Problem: The DNC isn't ran by the Democrats that we've voted in.

So in short... If you support Biden, which is Hillary 2.0 new release with a shit load of bugs in it... You can happily fuck off too. The feeling is absolutely mutual.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/19/20 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellisande
Originally Posted By: Zin
If Trump loses this election... I support a war against the United States. We've lost our way. If Trump wins, maybe there is hope still. Maybe.


I pop in and out of here to see if any of you fuckers have gotten sick. Does this quote mean you support Civil War if your boy loses?

Civil war is going to happen no matter who wins this election. Reporters are going to start dying. The media, which is supposed to keep the government in check, is actually trying to just make money off of it. The media is stroking the fires of civil war, and that's exactly what will happen.

Because my cornfield ass and you can't actually talk to each other. Instead of debate, they are banning people from platforms that don't tout the PC line.
Posted by: Dani

Re: The End Of America ????? - 06/29/20 03:41 PM

Our country is bleeding, and it's going to stay that way for a long time, because the people who are responsible for fixing it are also people who benefit from it.

It doesn't matter which side wins the next election. We're screwed either way.
Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/21/20 03:12 PM

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You are free to think whatever you like. I don't like what Trump says anymore than most of the people on the left.

However... I don't take people for what they say.
That's nice to say, but words have consequences. While I do not subscribe to the philosophy that you have to watch out for every possible interpretation to your words and I do believe that the media takes the worst possible interpretation at times, I cannot give him a free pass like you do.


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I look at what they do. Trump is one of the best presidents we've ever had.
So, at least one criteria that you use to judge a president is if he tried to do what he said? That's fine if you take a look at everything, but a selective listing is simply partisan hackery.

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Build a wall: He did it, or tried damn hard to... I didn't think he would do it. I thought it was metaphorical. No.. Dude did it.

Bring manufacturing (jobs) back: He did it. Have to go through some hardship.. But he did it. It's kinda low now, but can't blame Trump on that one.

Impose tariffs on goods made in China and Mexico: Which actually means getting rid of NAFTA. I absolutely agreed with that.

Iran Nuclear deal: Never should have been a part of it in the first place. Just like I don't believe in subsidies for farmers, I don't believe in paying a country to not do something.
While we could debate the merits of these topics, I would rather not, at least in this thread, as they are policy choices and there are pros and cons for each one depending on what you value.

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It goes on and on. How Trump says things, sucks. He's a blowhard with an ego the size of Texas... But he gets shit done.

What's Biden? What the hell is his political platform he's running on? If he gets into office his job is over. He didn't say he's going to do a damn thing that I'm aware of that Trump isn't already addressing.

I DON'T LIKE SUPPORTING TRUMP. It sucks. GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION.
My honest answer is ANYBODY ELSE. I'll explain down below.

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Tulsi Gabbard... I would have voted for her in a heartbeat. I GAVE MONEY TO Andrew Yang... Problem: The DNC isn't ran by the Democrats that we've voted in.
You can count me as one of the YANG gang as well, but we are where we are...

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So in short... If you support Biden, which is Hillary 2.0 new release with a shit load of bugs in it... You can happily fuck off too. The feeling is absolutely mutual.
Well, you certainly can have that attitude, but that is one problem with what is going on in our country. Nobody talks. or rather nobody listens...

So here are a few of the reasons why I cannot support Trump.

1) He has dismantled too many of the foundations of our government. Now, I am not talking about his evisceration of some of the administrative agencies (EPA, etc.), but the fundamentals of our government that have inherent checks and balances. The impeachment process is a good example. Independent of whether you think that he deserved to be impeached or not, I cannot understand how anyone believes that his and his fellow Republicans' conduct did not obstruct justice and destroyed that check on presidential powers.

2) He lies and has managed to make that acceptable to the American public. When I say he lies, it's not just about the small stuff, he lies about the big stuff also. The consistent lies would normally be checked by the media that would call him on it, but that check has been refuted as ppl just genuinely don't seem to care.

3) He actively foments division (usually along racial lines). America is fundamentally diverse as we are a relatively new nation, have grown primarily through immigration and do not have the rich histories that other nations do. We function best when the commonalities are stressed and we feel, whether rightly or wrongly, united with our fellow Americans. Focusing on the division simply breaks us up.

While there are more things I can list, those are the major ones and I am curious as to what responses I get, if any at all.

More than happy to elaborate on more or other topics.

@zin your opinion of the dire consequences of Biden seems overexagerrated. Even if I were to assume the worst about Biden, it would simply be politics as usually and heading in a direction that you think is bad. However, if you assume the worst about Trump, we will get a person that will break our government and take advantage for his own personal gain. Maybe you are basically advocating that we do need to break our government. I can't tell. While I do agree that our system has major flaws, I'd prefer not to throw out the baby with the bath water.
Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/21/20 03:14 PM

Quote:
Civil war is going to happen no matter who wins this election. Reporters are going to start dying. The media, which is supposed to keep the government in check, is actually trying to just make money off of it. The media is stroking the fires of civil war, and that's exactly what will happen.
I do believe that the media is a large contributor to our situation as it is now. I don't take such a cynical view that civil war is going to happen, but it's certainly possible.
Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/21/20 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Dani
Our country is bleeding, and it's going to stay that way for a long time, because the people who are responsible for fixing it are also people who benefit from it.

It doesn't matter which side wins the next election. We're screwed either way.
I generally thought of you as one of the more positive, optomistic posters. Do you honestly believe it is as dire as you say? To be clear, dire as in a civil war is inevitable...
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/27/20 02:55 PM

“The Kenosha police chief says protesters wouldn’t have been shot by armed teen if they weren’t illegally out past curfew”


What The Fuck !!!!!!

I appreciate that multiple exclamation marks are often the last resort of people with no actual argument, but in this case I feel vindicated in my use of "!!!!!!"

... A police chief said (paraphrasing)... 'You probably shouldn't have been murdered by somebody breaking curfew, but in your case, it's OK, because you were breaking curfew.'


Please guys, stop this nonsense in November.


The rest of the world doesn't know whether to laugh at you or cry for you.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/27/20 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
“The Kenosha police chief says protesters wouldn’t have been shot by armed teen if they weren’t illegally out past curfew”


What The Fuck !!!!!!

I appreciate that multiple exclamation marks are often the last resort of people with no actual argument, but in this case I feel vindicated in my use of "!!!!!!"

... A police chief said (paraphrasing)... 'You probably shouldn't have been murdered by somebody breaking curfew, but in your case, it's OK, because you were breaking curfew.'


Please guys, stop this nonsense in November.


The rest of the world doesn't know whether to laugh at you or cry for you.

Right... that means you vote for Trump. Do you follow politics enough to know that?
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 08/27/20 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Gruggo
That's nice to say, but words have consequences. While I do not subscribe to the philosophy that you have to watch out for every possible interpretation to your words and I do believe that the media takes the worst possible interpretation at times, I cannot give him a free pass like you do.

I give him just as much of a free pass as I do Biden. Do you?


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So, at least one criteria that you use to judge a president is if he tried to do what he said? That's fine if you take a look at everything, but a selective listing is simply partisan hackery.

That's bullshit and you know it. Go through that list again. Where do you get off telling me what **I** find important?

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Well, you certainly can have that attitude, but that is one problem with what is going on in our country. Nobody talks. or rather nobody listens...

I was attacked. I retaliated.

Quote:
So here are a few of the reasons why I cannot support Trump.

1) He has dismantled too many of the foundations of our government. Now, I am not talking about his evisceration of some of the administrative agencies (EPA, etc.), but the fundamentals of our government that have inherent checks and balances. The impeachment process is a good example. Independent of whether you think that he deserved to be impeached or not, I cannot understand how anyone believes that his and his fellow Republicans' conduct did not obstruct justice and destroyed that check on presidential powers.

WHAT? It was all based off of a bullshit paid for DNC ... WHAT?

Quote:
2) He lies and has managed to make that acceptable to the American public. When I say he lies, it's not just about the small stuff, he lies about the big stuff also. The consistent lies would normally be checked by the media that would call him on it, but that check has been refuted as ppl just genuinely don't seem to care.

To be fair... The Media lies. So.. It's hard to call out a liar, when you are a liar.

Quote:
3) He actively foments division (usually along racial lines). America is fundamentally diverse as we are a relatively new nation, have grown primarily through immigration and do not have the rich histories that other nations do. We function best when the commonalities are stressed and we feel, whether rightly or wrongly, united with our fellow Americans. Focusing on the division simply breaks us up.

That's your perception of it. It's not mine. If being "untied with our fellow Americans" means I have to kneel to them... That's not going to work. If that means I have to let them burn shit down.. that's not going to work. My pronoun is "MASTER". You only have to use it if you believe you have the right to dictate my speech though.

It's not a black or white thing. If they came to my home town looking to burn down a federal building, I'll be there with a gun. And I'll happily defend against WHOEVER is trying to burn shit down.

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@zin your opinion of the dire consequences of Biden seems overexagerrated. Even if I were to assume the worst about Biden, it would simply be politics as usually and heading in a direction that you think is bad. However, if you assume the worst about Trump, we will get a person that will break our government and take advantage for his own personal gain. Maybe you are basically advocating that we do need to break our government. I can't tell. While I do agree that our system has major flaws, I'd prefer not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Then I suggest you get off your ass and start getting the DNC to put up some people who actually had a chance to dethrone Trump.

Because you've, Democrats, already lost the election allowing the Riots to go on this long. If you believe they are peaceful, you obviously only watch the lying ass mainstream media.

Citizens are starting to kill each other over this... It's just the first step. I'm telling you, mainstream media heads is coming next. I'm not asking you to kneel, I'm telling you what is going to happen if you support others who do. Biden is one of those people.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/03/20 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
“The Kenosha police chief says protesters wouldn’t have been shot by armed teen if they weren’t illegally out past curfew”


What The Fuck !!!!!!

I appreciate that multiple exclamation marks are often the last resort of people with no actual argument, but in this case I feel vindicated in my use of "!!!!!!"

... A police chief said (paraphrasing)... 'You probably shouldn't have been murdered by somebody breaking curfew, but in your case, it's OK, because you were breaking curfew.'


Please guys, stop this nonsense in November.


The rest of the world doesn't know whether to laugh at you or cry for you.


A mob attacked him and he defended himself, that isn't murder.
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/04/20 09:51 PM

WHAT !!!!!!

(more multiple exclamation points)


He was too young to legally own the weapon he was carrying.
He was not allowed to cross your state boundarirs because of above.

He wants to defend 'Murica... Then conscript him & send him to anywhere that you have a war going on.



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you done for your country??
Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/05/20 11:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Zin
I give him just as much of a free pass as I do Biden. Do you?
No, I don't give anyone a free pass. do you think that the things that Trump has said are comparable to the things that Biden has said? IMHO, Trump has said far worse and no addition of context makes it any better in majority of the cases. If you really want to go through a list, I'd be more than happy to oblige...


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So, at least one criteria that you use to judge a president is if he tried to do what he said? That's fine if you take a look at everything, but a selective listing is simply partisan hackery.

That's bullshit and you know it. Go through that list again. Where do you get off telling me what **I** find important?
*blinks* what are you talking about? I'm not telling you what you find important. you said it yourself. My point about a selective listing is that he has done a lot more that is detrimental to the country as a whole. It seems to be a GOP trend to ignore anything bad and only focus on the "good."

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Well, you certainly can have that attitude, but that is one problem with what is going on in our country. Nobody talks. or rather nobody listens...

I was attacked. I retaliated.
Again, what are you talking about??? who attacked you enough to validate a position of I'm not going to listen to anything anyone else says.

Quote:
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1) He has dismantled too many of the foundations of our government. Now, I am not talking about his evisceration of some of the administrative agencies (EPA, etc.), but the fundamentals of our government that have inherent checks and balances. The impeachment process is a good example. Independent of whether you think that he deserved to be impeached or not, I cannot understand how anyone believes that his and his fellow Republicans' conduct did not obstruct justice and destroyed that check on presidential powers.

WHAT? It was all based off of a bullshit paid for DNC ... WHAT?
AGain, I strongly don't agree that it was bullshit, but even if it was and even if it was paid for by the DNC, that does not justify subverting the process in place to hold politicians accountable. Trump and his lackeys in Congress did just that. This is the point that I find unacceptable.

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2) He lies and has managed to make that acceptable to the American public. When I say he lies, it's not just about the small stuff, he lies about the big stuff also. The consistent lies would normally be checked by the media that would call him on it, but that check has been refuted as ppl just genuinely don't seem to care.

To be fair... The Media lies. So.. It's hard to call out a liar, when you are a liar.
Do you really believe that the Media bald faced lies? I accept that there will be a certain amount of spin and mistakes made in the pursuit of money/advertising/ratings, but you make it sound like they bald face lie.

Additionally, the fault of the media does not excuse that Trump lies in the first place. As I said, it works because ppl don't care. I'm actually surprised that you are one of them.

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3) He actively foments division (usually along racial lines).

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That's your perception of it. It's not mine.
So you believe that his actions and words are an attempt to unify ppl? that his actions and words have not furthered the divide?

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If being "untied with our fellow Americans" means I have to kneel to them... That's not going to work. If that means I have to let them burn shit down.. that's not going to work. My pronoun is "MASTER". You only have to use it if you believe you have the right to dictate my speech though.
Again, what are you talking about? who's says that you have to kneel before anyone? Master? what are you talking about?

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It's not a black or white thing. If they came to my home town looking to burn down a federal building, I'll be there with a gun. And I'll happily defend against WHOEVER is trying to burn shit down.
Again, what are you talking about?

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Then I suggest you get off your ass and start getting the DNC to put up some people who actually had a chance to dethrone Trump.
lol@ your use of the word "dethrone..."


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Because you've, Democrats, already lost the election allowing the Riots to go on this long. If you believe they are peaceful, you obviously only watch the lying ass mainstream media.
The world is grey. Are there violence at the protests? sure. Are there peaceful protests? sure.

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Citizens are starting to kill each other over this... It's just the first step. I'm telling you, mainstream media heads is coming next. I'm not asking you to kneel, I'm telling you what is going to happen if you support others who do. Biden is one of those people.
again, what are you talking about? kneeling seems to be a big idea in your head. I have no idea where that comes from. are you referring to the kaepernick thing?
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/05/20 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
I give him just as much of a free pass as I do Biden. Do you?
No, I don't give anyone a free pass. do you think that the things that Trump has said are comparable to the things that Biden has said? IMHO, Trump has said far worse and no addition of context makes it any better in majority of the cases. If you really want to go through a list, I'd be more than happy to oblige...

Considering Biden has a hard time talking... No... I don't find them comparable.


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So, at least one criteria that you use to judge a president is if he tried to do what he said? That's fine if you take a look at everything, but a selective listing is simply partisan hackery.

That's bullshit and you know it. Go through that list again. Where do you get off telling me what **I** find important?
*blinks* what are you talking about? I'm not telling you what you find important. you said it yourself. My point about a selective listing is that he has done a lot more that is detrimental to the country as a whole. It seems to be a GOP trend to ignore anything bad and only focus on the "good."

I don't understand why you bothered then. That was my list and why I am going to vote for him.

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Well, you certainly can have that attitude, but that is one problem with what is going on in our country. Nobody talks. or rather nobody listens...

I was attacked. I retaliated.
Again, what are you talking about??? who attacked you enough to validate a position of I'm not going to listen to anything anyone else says.

If you go back and read through it... I said pretty much the exact same thing you did.

Originally Posted By: Zin
Because my cornfield ass and you can't actually talk to each other. Instead of debate, they are banning people from platforms that don't tout the PC line.

I guess you were just trying to back my point? Seemed like you were trying to say I wasn't being fair.

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AGain, I strongly don't agree that it was bullshit, but even if it was and even if it was paid for by the DNC, that does not justify subverting the process in place to hold politicians accountable. Trump and his lackeys in Congress did just that. This is the point that I find unacceptable.

I would agree with you if process wasn't used as a weapon knowingly by the DNC. It was literally fabricated evidence.

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Do you really believe that the Media bald faced lies? I accept that there will be a certain amount of spin and mistakes made in the pursuit of money/advertising/ratings, but you make it sound like they bald face lie.

You did watch the Covington Kids shit show right? Yes... They absolutely bald face lie. They have been calling the Riots "peaceful protests" for god knows how long now.

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Additionally, the fault of the media does not excuse that Trump lies in the first place. As I said, it works because ppl don't care. I'm actually surprised that you are one of them.

I care. But... I need evidence and context. Wihtout it... You're right, I don't much stock into it. Mainstream media is just about making money now, not about actually informing people.

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So you believe that his actions and words are an attempt to unify ppl? that his actions and words have not furthered the divide?

Again... If to be unified means I have to kneel... we will never be unified until I'm dead.

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If being "untied with our fellow Americans" means I have to kneel to them... That's not going to work. If that means I have to let them burn shit down.. that's not going to work. My pronoun is "MASTER". You only have to use it if you believe you have the right to dictate my speech though.
Again, what are you talking about? who's says that you have to kneel before anyone? Master? what are you talking about?

You don't seem to know about BLM's actual goals. Defunding the police and what not. You don't even seem to know what Biden's platform is. WTF?

Did you know that Biden's campaign and specially his VP has started a go fund me to bail out rioters? DA's in riot cities aren't prosecuting rioters. Why in the world would cops continue to try to do their jobs, if they are set free the next day? They just tried to burn down... Blah... If you don't follow what's actually been going on for the last year, it seems a waste of my time to talk to you about it.

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[quote]It's not a black or white thing. If they came to my home town looking to burn down a federal building, I'll be there with a gun. And I'll happily defend against WHOEVER is trying to burn shit down.
Again, what are you talking about?

They've been trying to burn down federal buildings for months now. Do you not even try to keep up on news? Or do you JUST WATCH CNN? What the hell man?

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Then I suggest you get off your ass and start getting the DNC to put up some people who actually had a chance to dethrone Trump.
lol@ your use of the word "dethrone..."

Thanks.


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Because you've, Democrats, already lost the election allowing the Riots to go on this long. If you believe they are peaceful, you obviously only watch the lying ass mainstream media.
The world is grey. Are there violence at the protests? sure. Are there peaceful protests? sure.

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Citizens are starting to kill each other over this... It's just the first step. I'm telling you, mainstream media heads is coming next. I'm not asking you to kneel, I'm telling you what is going to happen if you support others who do. Biden is one of those people.
again, what are you talking about? kneeling seems to be a big idea in your head. I have no idea where that comes from. are you referring to the kaepernick thing?

No... BLM or Antifa whatever you wish to call them... Are actually walking into public places and demanding they salute or kneel to the movement. Mainstream media isn't covering it. Local news covers it, and Tim Pool covers all news. I'm not going to spend the time to go find it again. It'll come out sooner or later. Know that I knew about it months before you.

Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/05/20 02:09 PM

Found it.

I won't kneel. I won't walk away.

Video: Watch it.
This is happening

Please note what CNN said about the same thing that happened in Rochester.
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/06/20 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/07/20 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you or this "Hey - look at me - I'm in the militia" idiot done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise


2 days later - still no Aran response - no surprise
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/07/20 03:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you or this "Hey - look at me - I'm in the militia" idiot done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise


2 days later - still no Aran response - no surprise

Would you like me to reply and correct you where you are wrong? I won't waste my time if you think I'm an idiot.

I'm voting for Trump.
Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/08/20 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
I give him just as much of a free pass as I do Biden. Do you?
No, I don't give anyone a free pass. do you think that the things that Trump has said are comparable to the things that Biden has said? IMHO, Trump has said far worse and no addition of context makes it any better in majority of the cases. If you really want to go through a list, I'd be more than happy to oblige...

Considering Biden has a hard time talking... No... I don't find them comparable.
Again, what are you talking about? The public imagery of Biden is that he will talk your head off if given a chance. So, saying that Biden has "a hard time talking" seems silly.


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So, at least one criteria that you use to judge a president is if he tried to do what he said? That's fine if you take a look at everything, but a selective listing is simply partisan hackery.

That's bullshit and you know it. Go through that list again. Where do you get off telling me what **I** find important?
*blinks* what are you talking about? I'm not telling you what you find important. you said it yourself. My point about a selective listing is that he has done a lot more that is detrimental to the country as a whole. It seems to be a GOP trend to ignore anything bad and only focus on the "good."

I don't understand why you bothered then. That was my list and why I am going to vote for him.

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Well, you certainly can have that attitude, but that is one problem with what is going on in our country. Nobody talks. or rather nobody listens...

I was attacked. I retaliated.
Again, what are you talking about??? who attacked you enough to validate a position of I'm not going to listen to anything anyone else says.

If you go back and read through it... I said pretty much the exact same thing you did.

Originally Posted By: Zin
Because my cornfield ass and you can't actually talk to each other. Instead of debate, they are banning people from platforms that don't tout the PC line.

I guess you were just trying to back my point? Seemed like you were trying to say I wasn't being fair.
I'll try one more time to explain. You listed several policy reasons why you supported Trump. While I disagree with you on those issues, I understand that they are policy choices and that will just depend on our differing values. So I decided not to engage on the merits of those choices. I am of the opinion that Republicans seem to fall into the category of only focusing on the good and completely ignoring the bad, even to the point of denying that the bad does exist. My complaints about Trump are mainly focusing on the bad stuff he's done because I believe that they are contributing to the downfall of our country by breaking down our system of checks and balances. Hence, I am willing to comment on the bad things.

My comment to you regarding political hackery was that I hope that you are not in that category of only focusing on the good and completely ignoring the bad, even to the point of denying that the bad does exist.

I did not pay that much attention to your dialogue with Ellisande.

BTW, hi ellisande. Nice to see you here.

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AGain, I strongly don't agree that it was bullshit, but even if it was and even if it was paid for by the DNC, that does not justify subverting the process in place to hold politicians accountable. Trump and his lackeys in Congress did just that. This is the point that I find unacceptable.

I would agree with you if process wasn't used as a weapon knowingly by the DNC. It was literally fabricated evidence.
So... to be clear, you believe that Trump did not try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid?

and that all of the testimony from ppl involved that stated that Trump did try to make the military aid contingent on them starting an investigation is fabricated evidence and is not to be believed?

To be clear, these are facts in question. Either you believe the fact that he did it or you don't. Either you believe that these ppl told the truth or you think they lied. This isn't spin. Now, if you wish to argue that it's not bad to do that, that's spin...

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Do you really believe that the Media bald faced lies? I accept that there will be a certain amount of spin and mistakes made in the pursuit of money/advertising/ratings, but you make it sound like they bald face lie.

You did watch the Covington Kids shit show right? Yes... They absolutely bald face lie. They have been calling the Riots "peaceful protests" for god knows how long now.

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Additionally, the fault of the media does not excuse that Trump lies in the first place. As I said, it works because ppl don't care. I'm actually surprised that you are one of them.

I care. But... I need evidence and context. Wihtout it... You're right, I don't much stock into it. Mainstream media is just about making money now, not about actually informing people.
I think the major divide between our positions is a matter of degrees. While I accept that the media spins the facts, I accept that as an unfortunate side effect to the business nature of news. To be clear, what I mean when I say “spins the facts”, spinning the facts does not mean bald face lying about the facts themselves. It means that they are giving their interpretation of the facts/truth or giving context to the facts that support their interpretation. It also does not mean that the news stories are wholly useless and completely unreliable, but simply that I have to expend more effort to recognize/discount the spin to discern the truth. As a result of the above, I do not believe that they state bald faced lies. I would say that the facts reported are usually correct.
So, you pointing to stories where the context given was incorrect (your reference to "Covington kids") is true and an example of bad media coverage. However, my understanding is that the media outlets did correct themselves afterwards (albeit reluctantly) and the fault was widely acknowledged. Hence, I do not give it as much significance as you do with regard to the judging the reliability of the media to report facts.
For the record, when the Covington kids story came out, I don't remember giving it much attention as it seemed silly.
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So you believe that his actions and words are an attempt to unify ppl? that his actions and words have not furthered the divide?

Again... If to be unified means I have to kneel... we will never be unified until I'm dead.
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If being "untied with our fellow Americans" means I have to kneel to them... That's not going to work. If that means I have to let them burn shit down.. that's not going to work. My pronoun is "MASTER". You only have to use it if you believe you have the right to dictate my speech though.
Again, what are you talking about? who's says that you have to kneel before anyone? Master? what are you talking about?

You don't seem to know about BLM's actual goals. Defunding the police and what not. You don't even seem to know what Biden's platform is. WTF?

Did you know that Biden's campaign and specially his VP has started a go fund me to bail out rioters? DA's in riot cities aren't prosecuting rioters. Why in the world would cops continue to try to do their jobs, if they are set free the next day? They just tried to burn down... Blah... If you don't follow what's actually been going on for the last year, it seems a waste of my time to talk to you about it.

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It's not a black or white thing. If they came to my home town looking to burn down a federal building, I'll be there with a gun. And I'll happily defend against WHOEVER is trying to burn shit down.
Again, what are you talking about?

They've been trying to burn down federal buildings for months now. Do you not even try to keep up on news? Or do you JUST WATCH CNN? What the hell man?

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Because you've, Democrats, already lost the election allowing the Riots to go on this long. If you believe they are peaceful, you obviously only watch the lying ass mainstream media.
The world is grey. Are there violence at the protests? sure. Are there peaceful protests? sure.

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Citizens are starting to kill each other over this... It's just the first step. I'm telling you, mainstream media heads is coming next. I'm not asking you to kneel, I'm telling you what is going to happen if you support others who do. Biden is one of those people.
again, what are you talking about? kneeling seems to be a big idea in your head. I have no idea where that comes from. are you referring to the kaepernick thing?

No... BLM or Antifa whatever you wish to call them... Are actually walking into public places and demanding they salute or kneel to the movement. Mainstream media isn't covering it. Local news covers it, and Tim Pool covers all news. I'm not going to spend the time to go find it again. It'll come out sooner or later. Know that I knew about it months before you.


Can you point to protests where it got violent? sure. Can you point to protests where they tried to force ppl to comply with whatever agenda those ppl at that protest had (your kneeling point)? sure. Should one conclude that this is the BLM’s agenda from those instances? Probably not.

It’s a matter of numbers. The problem is that the BLM movement is a decentralized movement that has core message that is pretty generalized. As such, I can understand if protests in some instances got violent. You seem to indicate that this violence is so widespread such that you attribute it to being the official BLM’s agenda. Data indicates that 93% of the protests have not been violent.

https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

I do not believe that 7% of protests being violent equates to identify the agenda of the movement. Undoubtedly, you can just discount the facts in that study, but that's your choice if you wish to ignore facts. In addition, the civil rights movement back in the 50s and 60s also had fringe violent groups. However, to characterize that movement as having violence as it's agenda would probably be incorrect.

On a personal level, I have attended three such protests in NYC. None were violent. I have also watched as rioters ran amok down my street and smashed windows of the store opposed my apartment building. So I have seen it first hand. I think you are overplaying the issue.

It reminds me of the exact same issue on the other side. Ppl will show me videos of police beating up on protestors and claim that the police are corrupt and there are no good cops and that the police want to create a police state etc. etc. etc. My answer to them is the same to you. There are good cops/protestors and there are bad ones. The vast majority are good ones. To ascribe the bad behavior to the group as a whole is silly.

Once forming the idea that the BLM is trying to get you to kneel in compliance, you seem to advance the idea that the Biden/Harris campaign supports this. You seem to place great importance on the fact that Biden/Harris are supportive of the movement and then take the view that they are supportive of the riots and/or your rendition of what you think the BLM's agenda is all about (i.e. making everyone kneel...). I think you are building a house of cards and the factual bases underpinning your entire conclusion is faulty.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/08/20 06:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Again, what are you talking about? The public imagery of Biden is that he will talk your head off if given a chance. So, saying that Biden has "a hard time talking" seems silly.

That suggests that you don't actually watch him talk without teleprompters. I could post all kinds of videos... But what would that do? Would that change your mind? I tell you what, I'll just post a funny one.






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I'll try one more time to explain. You listed several policy reasons why you supported Trump. While I disagree with you on those issues, I understand that they are policy choices and that will just depend on our differing values. So I decided not to engage on the merits of those choices. I am of the opinion that Republicans seem to fall into the category of only focusing on the good and completely ignoring the bad, even to the point of denying that the bad does exist. My complaints about Trump are mainly focusing on the bad stuff he's done because I believe that they are contributing to the downfall of our country by breaking down our system of checks and balances. Hence, I am willing to comment on the bad things.

So am I. In fact I already have. *shrugs*

If you want to talk about whatever, feel free... I'm game.

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My comment to you regarding political hackery was that I hope that you are not in that category of only focusing on the good and completely ignoring the bad, even to the point of denying that the bad does exist.

I did not pay that much attention to your dialogue with Ellisande.

BTW, hi ellisande. Nice to see you here.

I still tend to have "carry over" to new people to threads. I figure if you replied to me when I replied to someone else, that you have already read the whole thread and taken what I said in context. It's foolish of me I know, considering it doesn't happen near as much as it should.

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So... to be clear, you believe that Trump did not try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid?

Umm... But Biden DID SO THAT. I think I have the right to know about that. Because that is some grade A bullshit right there. Biden threatened to withhold funding if such and such wasn't fired to keep his kid safe and making money in what I can only assume are kickbacks.

These facts are not in question. Did you not know that his son was making hundreds of thousands for doing nothing in that deal?

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and that all of the testimony from ppl involved that stated that Trump did try to make the military aid contingent on them starting an investigation is fabricated evidence and is not to be believed?

Oh no... I'm good with that so long as you also accept what I just posted above. These facts are not in question.

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To be clear, these are facts in question. Either you believe the fact that he did it or you don't. Either you believe that these ppl told the truth or you think they lied. This isn't spin. Now, if you wish to argue that it's not bad to do that, that's spin...

Back to you... Biden using his pull to keep his son safe and making money for nothing... Spin?





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I think the major divide between our positions is a matter of degrees. While I accept that the media spins the facts, I accept that as an unfortunate side effect to the business nature of news. To be clear, what I mean when I say “spins the facts”, spinning the facts does not mean bald face lying about the facts themselves. It means that they are giving their interpretation of the facts/truth or giving context to the facts that support their interpretation. It also does not mean that the news stories are wholly useless and completely unreliable, but simply that I have to expend more effort to recognize/discount the spin to discern the truth. As a result of the above, I do not believe that they state bald faced lies. I would say that the facts reported are usually correct.

Not in that Covington case. They had the full video... They flat out lied...


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So, you pointing to stories where the context given was incorrect (your reference to "Covington kids") is true and an example of bad media coverage. However, my understanding is that the media outlets did correct themselves afterwards (albeit reluctantly) and the fault was widely acknowledged. Hence, I do not give it as much significance as you do with regard to the judging the reliability of the media to report facts.

NEGATIVE. The kid sued and is going after them BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CORRECT IT. Not all of them, just the ones that did not correct.


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For the record, when the Covington kids story came out, I don't remember giving it much attention as it seemed silly.

That's because you are smarter than most of the population. Frankly getting that story WRONG is one of two things... They are morbidly retarded and shouldn't have a job telling people information, or THEY ARE THE POLITICAL HACKS. If those kids weren't wearing pro-Trump hats.. There is no story.


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Can you point to protests where it got violent? sure. Can you point to protests where they tried to force ppl to comply with whatever agenda those ppl at that protest had (your kneeling point)? sure. Should one conclude that this is the BLM’s agenda from those instances? Probably not.

It’s a matter of numbers. The problem is that the BLM movement is a decentralized movement that has core message that is pretty generalized. As such, I can understand if protests in some instances got violent. You seem to indicate that this violence is so widespread such that you attribute it to being the official BLM’s agenda. Data indicates that 93% of the protests have not been violent.

https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

I do not believe that 7% of protests being violent equates to identify the agenda of the movement. Undoubtedly, you can just discount the facts in that study, but that's your choice if you wish to ignore facts. In addition, the civil rights movement back in the 50s and 60s also had fringe violent groups. However, to characterize that movement as having violence as it's agenda would probably be incorrect.

On a personal level, I have attended three such protests in NYC. None were violent. I have also watched as rioters ran amok down my street and smashed windows of the store opposed my apartment building. So I have seen it first hand. I think you are overplaying the issue.

Negative... I just separate black lives matter the movement, from BLACK LIVES MATTER the organization. I have no problem with the movement. I have a problem with the organization, and yes... They are admitted Marxist that is willing to do violence.

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It reminds me of the exact same issue on the other side. Ppl will show me videos of police beating up on protestors and claim that the police are corrupt and there are no good cops and that the police want to create a police state etc. etc. etc. My answer to them is the same to you. There are good cops/protestors and there are bad ones. The vast majority are good ones. To ascribe the bad behavior to the group as a whole is silly.

Again... I agree. On the movement, not the organization.

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Once forming the idea that the BLM is trying to get you to kneel in compliance, you seem to advance the idea that the Biden/Harris campaign supports this. You seem to place great importance on the fact that Biden/Harris are supportive of the movement and then take the view that they are supportive of the riots and/or your rendition of what you think the BLM's agenda is all about (i.e. making everyone kneel...). I think you are building a house of cards and the factual bases underpinning your entire conclusion is faulty.

Umm... You didn't read my last post very well... They ARE NOT prosecuting people trying to burn down buildings. They ARE NOT prosecuting people who are vandalizing. I don't know how the fuck you see that as any other way of supporting BLM the organization. Not the peaceful protesters, the ones actively and easily being seen as breaking the law, and not prosecuting them.

Read my last post again, with that in mind.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/08/20 07:34 PM

On the Sandmann ( Covington kids ) update.

Posted by: Gruggo

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/10/20 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Zin
That suggests that you don't actually watch him talk without teleprompters. I could post all kinds of videos... But what would that do? Would that change your mind? I tell you what, I'll just post a funny one.



Your answer suggests that you are simply commenting about a politician's ability to speak extemporaneously or without a telepromptor. If so, have at it. I probably will not respond. Personally, I find it silly to comment about a person's abilities to speak without a teleprompter. I do not expect all politicians to be smooth public speakers. I didn't understand it when they made comments about Bush nor about Obama. It is more important to judge the ideas behind the words, however inartfully said.

This part of the thread started when I said that Trump's words have consequences and so I do not dismiss them. Opposed to the social gaffes that Joe Biden is apparently famous for, Trump's words have consequences and represent something that is dangerous no matter how much spin you give it. For example, I cannot understand how ppl excuse the situation in Helsinki (I think...) in a press conference with Putin where he was asked about our intelligence agencies conclusions that Russia meddled in our election and Russian claims that they didn't and who he believed. He said he believed Russia. Our president chose the side of a foreign nation (a hostile one at that) over our own intelligence agencies.

Here's the transcript of that exchange.

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JONATHAN LEMIRE, ASSOCIATED PRESS: President Trump, you first. Just now, President Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did. My first question for you sir is, who do you believe? My second question is would you now, with the whole world watching, tell President Putin, would you denounce what happened in 2016 and would you want him to never do it again?

TRUMP: So let me just say that we have two thoughts. You have groups that are wondering why the FBI never took the server. Why haven't they taken the server? Why was the FBI told to leave the office of the Democratic National Committee?

I've been wondering that. I've been asking that for months and months and I've been tweeting it out and calling it out on social media. Where is the server? I want to know where is the server and what is the server saying?

With that being said, all I can do is ask the question.

My people came to me, Dan Coats, came to me and some others they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia.

I will say this: I don't see any reason why it would be. But I really do want to see the server but I have, I have confidence in both parties.

[...]

I have great confidence in my intelligence people but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today and what he did is an incredible offer.

He offered to have the people working on the case come and work with their investigators, with respect to the 12 people. I think that's an incredible offer. Ok? Thank you.[39]


I don't understand how ppl can still support him after that fiasco.

I understand that Trump claims that he misspoke and meant to say "wouldn't" opposed to "would." I don't buy it. If you just look at the sentence, it doesn't really make sense that you would say "wouldn't" vs "would."

However, even if I were to accept that he did misspeak, taken in the context of the question, a tepid response to a question of which side are you on is unacceptable when the choices are your own intelligence agencies vs a foreign hostile country.





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So am I. In fact I already have. *shrugs*

If you want to talk about whatever, feel free... I'm game.
Ok.

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I still tend to have "carry over" to new people to threads. I figure if you replied to me when I replied to someone else, that you have already read the whole thread and taken what I said in context. It's foolish of me I know, considering it doesn't happen near as much as it should.
I did read it, but didn't view the comment that I was responding to as needing any context. Taken in isolation, I find it sad when anyone takes the position that I'm not going to talk about something and listen to what you have to say.

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So... to be clear, you believe that Trump did not try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid?

Umm... But Biden DID SO THAT. I think I have the right to know about that. Because that is some grade A bullshit right there. Biden threatened to withhold funding if such and such wasn't fired to keep his kid safe and making money in what I can only assume are kickbacks.

These facts are not in question. Did you not know that his son was making hundreds of thousands for doing nothing in that deal?
I'll address the Biden situation later, but just to be clear, you do not deny that Trump did try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid? If you do deny that then I think we have no more room for discussion.

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and that all of the testimony from ppl involved that stated that Trump did try to make the military aid contingent on them starting an investigation is fabricated evidence and is not to be believed?

Oh no... I'm good with that so long as you also accept what I just posted above. These facts are not in question.
what you label as "facts not in question" are in fact in question.

Biden threatened to withhold funding if such and such wasn't fired to keep his kid safe and making money in what I can only assume are kickbacks.

The highlighted part is conclusory and widely disputed. I understand it's your supposition, but the facts are contrary to that conclusion.

1) Biden was not president and did not make foreign policy decisions. The effort to get that prosecutor fired was a state policy decision and Biden was the one to implement that policy. To suggest that Biden created that policy for his own personal reasons is contrary to the facts. See https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/us/politics/joe-biden-ukraine.html

2) The firing of that prosecutor was contradictory to the assumption that Biden did it to stop the prosecutor from investigating his son. The prosecutor was widely viewed by many different countries (not just the US) as being soft and corrupt. The fact that he did not pursue prosecutions and was soft on those corrupt corporations was the very reason why the US and other countries wanted him to go. It makes no sense that Biden would act to get rid of that prosecutor. Given teh prosecutor's soft record on corruption, it would make more sense for Biden to want to keep him if he were protecting his son. See https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-49847327

3) The Ukraine concluded that there was no evidence against Biden in 2020. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t...r-idUSKBN23B2RB

Let's stop for now. What facts support your conclusion?

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To be clear, these are facts in question. Either you believe the fact that he did it or you don't. Either you believe that these ppl told the truth or you think they lied. This isn't spin. Now, if you wish to argue that it's not bad to do that, that's spin...

Back to you... Biden using his pull to keep his son safe and making money for nothing... Spin?


Yes, as shown above, your position that "Biden using his pull to keep his son safe and making money for nothing" is spin and contrary to the facts as we know them.

In contrast, let me finish the question I originally posed to you.

"you believe that Trump did not try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid... in order to further his personal interests?

The support for this conclusion that has been highlighted above is overwhelming from the testimony of the ppl involved.

See https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry-testified-congress/story?id=66763043

https://www.businessinsider.com/bolton-b...eeze-nyt-2020-1

So, what factual bases support an opposite conclusion? As far as I can see, many of the arguments raised contradicting this conclusion are unsupported, but if you know of others that are well supported, please let me know.

I have a hard time understanding how ppl excuse Trump's underlying behavior re the impeachment hearing. It seems to me that you excuse it because you believe that politicians, and Biden in particular, all do it and so it's no big deal. Is that the case?

I find it hard to believe as you seemed to care when it was Biden. Hopefully, I've gotten you to question your conclusions.

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I think the major divide between our positions is a matter of degrees. While I accept that the media spins the facts, I accept that as an unfortunate side effect to the business nature of news. To be clear, what I mean when I say “spins the facts”, spinning the facts does not mean bald face lying about the facts themselves. It means that they are giving their interpretation of the facts/truth or giving context to the facts that support their interpretation. It also does not mean that the news stories are wholly useless and completely unreliable, but simply that I have to expend more effort to recognize/discount the spin to discern the truth. As a result of the above, I do not believe that they state bald faced lies. I would say that the facts reported are usually correct.

Not in that Covington case. They had the full video... They flat out lied...


Quote:
So, you pointing to stories where the context given was incorrect (your reference to "Covington kids") is true and an example of bad media coverage. However, my understanding is that the media outlets did correct themselves afterwards (albeit reluctantly) and the fault was widely acknowledged. Hence, I do not give it as much significance as you do with regard to the judging the reliability of the media to report facts.

NEGATIVE. The kid sued and is going after them BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CORRECT IT. Not all of them, just the ones that did not correct.


Quote:
For the record, when the Covington kids story came out, I don't remember giving it much attention as it seemed silly.

That's because you are smarter than most of the population. Frankly getting that story WRONG is one of two things... They are morbidly retarded and shouldn't have a job telling people information, or THEY ARE THE POLITICAL HACKS. If those kids weren't wearing pro-Trump hats.. There is no story.
While I acknowledge that the media has major faults, I do not completely discount their usefulness like you seem to do.

I have found that reading international news about the US is the best way to get a more realistic viewpoint. While they also suffer from the need to be sensationalist, they usually do not have the political biases that news sources in the US can have.

Quote:
Negative... I just separate black lives matter the movement, from BLACK LIVES MATTER the organization. I have no problem with the movement. I have a problem with the organization, and yes... They are admitted Marxist that is willing to do violence.
I do not agree, but that's fine.

Quote:
Quote:
It reminds me of the exact same issue on the other side. Ppl will show me videos of police beating up on protestors and claim that the police are corrupt and there are no good cops and that the police want to create a police state etc. etc. etc. My answer to them is the same to you. There are good cops/protestors and there are bad ones. The vast majority are good ones. To ascribe the bad behavior to the group as a whole is silly.

Again... I agree. On the movement, not the organization.
I find it interesting that you make a distinction between the movement and the organization. Can't that distinction apply to other ppl's positions as well? You seem to label ppl (Biden, Harris etc.) as supportive of the BLM organization.

Quote:
Once forming the idea that the BLM is trying to get you to kneel in compliance, you seem to advance the idea that the Biden/Harris campaign supports this. You seem to place great importance on the fact that Biden/Harris are supportive of the movement and then take the view that they are supportive of the riots and/or your rendition of what you think the BLM's agenda is all about (i.e. making everyone kneel...). I think you are building a house of cards and the factual bases underpinning your entire conclusion is faulty.

Quote:
Umm... You didn't read my last post very well...
Probably. Our posts are getting longer and I no longer have the patience to follow every trail these days. If you care to delve deeper into any particular issue, it would be the most effective to start a new thread. Sad to say, but that's the way I operate nowadays. I probably messed up a "
Quote:
" somewhere. I don't remember it being this hard...


[quote] They ARE NOT prosecuting people trying to burn down buildings. They ARE NOT prosecuting people who are vandalizing. I don't know how the fuck you see that as any other way of supporting BLM the organization. Not the peaceful protesters, the ones actively and easily being seen as breaking the law, and not prosecuting them.

Read my last post again, with that in mind.
Who is the "they" that you are referring to? Biden/Harris? I think you are wrong and building that house of cards again.

From earlier posts, you've said...

Quote:
Did you know that Biden's campaign and specially his VP has started a go fund me to bail out rioters?
re biden, not according to politifact. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/20...20-million-bai/

With regard to Harris, she tweeted support for a fund that provided bail to protestors, but later condemned violence in the protests. That fund was found to have bailed out at least one violent protestor. Can one conclude that she supports violence in the protests as a result of those factoids? Sure, if you are simple minded, imho. Or can we conclude that she mainly supports bailing out protestors, but the fund that she supported bailed out a violent one, and that action should not be attributed to her overall position? This probably makes more sense.
Quote:
DA's in riot cities aren't prosecuting rioters.
Again, your take seems to be an overly simplistic approach. I have no idea what city you are talking about, but as far as the portland DA, this is the position as I understannd it:

"Mr. Schmidt said his office would presumptively decline to prosecute demonstrators for minor offenses such as interfering with the police, disorderly conduct and trespassing — cases that did not involve deliberate violence, property damage or theft. And charges for assault on officers and resisting arrest will now require closer scrutiny, with prosecutors taking into account in filing charges whether the police fired tear gas into crowds."

Seems a more nuanced approach from the simplistic statement that they are refusing to prosecute rioters...
If there are other cities that you are more thinking about, bring it up.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/10/20 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Your answer suggests that you are simply commenting about a politician's ability to speak extemporaneously or without a telepromptor. If so, have at it. I probably will not respond.

No... I'm commenting on he used to be able to do it, quite well... He no longer can. Why? If he had always done it to this degree I wouldn't bother mentioning it.

Quote:
Personally, I find it silly to comment about a person's abilities to speak without a teleprompter. I do not expect all politicians to be smooth public speakers. I didn't understand it when they made comments about Bush nor about Obama.

Oh come on... Bush was a doosey. I agree with the Obama. I do expect better from a president though.

Quote:
It is more important to judge the ideas behind the words, however inartfully said.

Really? I agree. Trump is perhaps a bit too direct, but the ideas behind them are good.

Quote:
Our president chose the side of a foreign nation (a hostile one at that) over our own intelligence agencies.

Without proof... I agree with him. All I have is "our own intelligence agencies" saying they did... no proof shown. I'm not a fuck'n sheep. You have to prove things to me. Even the government. ESPECIALLY THE GOVERNMENT.

Quote:
I'll address the Biden situation later, but just to be clear, you do not deny that Trump did try to pressure the Ukrainian government to start an investigation into Biden by threatening to withhold military aid? If you do deny that then I think we have no more room for discussion.

First.... I don't care if we continue this discussion or not. I will afford you the same respect you give me.

Of of the things that Trump had on his platform was to "drain the swamp"... Had he done that to any great effectiveness? No... But I do see this as a step in that direction. No... I don't deny that he very likely did pressure the Ukrainian government to reopen the case. I don't know if it's true or not, but I will happily act as if he did for this conversation and accept it as truth.

Quote:
what you label as "facts not in question" are in fact in question.

If you do deny that then I think we have no more room for discussion.

Quote:
Let's stop for now. What facts support your conclusion?

Did you not watch the video?

Quote:
Quote:
To be clear, these are facts in question. Either you believe the fact that he did it or you don't. Either you believe that these ppl told the truth or you think they lied. This isn't spin. Now, if you wish to argue that it's not bad to do that, that's spin...

Back to you... Biden using his pull to keep his son safe and making money for nothing... Spin?


Yes, as shown above, your position that "Biden using his pull to keep his son safe and making money for nothing" is spin and contrary to the facts as we know them.

In contrast, let me finish the question I originally posed to you.[/quote]
Ok.. the conversation is over.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/10/20 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you or this "Hey - look at me - I'm in the militia" idiot done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise


2 days later - still no Aran response - no surprise


Get a fucking life dude, this forum sits dead most of the year and you want me responding to you snippity snap because His Holy Highness Fluffi has deigned to post?

Eat my entire ass, don't miss an inch, you inbred chimp.
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/11/20 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you or this "Hey - look at me - I'm in the militia" idiot done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise


2 days later - still no Aran response - no surprise

Would you like me to reply and correct you where you are wrong? I won't waste my time if you think I'm an idiot.

I'm voting for Trump.



How exactly do you intend to "correct me where I'm wrong?"

I challenged Aran to respond on the 5th Sept.
On the 6th Sept I pointed-out that he hadn't replied.
On the 7th Sept I pointed-out that he hadn't replied.
As of today - 11th Sept, he stil hasn't replied.

Are you telling me that Aran made a magical response which is visible to all the posters here except me?
If so, I would challenge you to undergo the Republican trope which is aimed at Biden, and get your cognitive abilities tested.


... or are you suggesting that I was incorrect in my original assertion that Rittenhouse...

1) Was carrying a firearm he was not legally allowed to own
2) Twice crossed a state border carrying said firearm
3) Was illegally out on the streets after curfew
4) Shot somebody who threw a plastic bag with a water bottle in it at him
5) Shot two others
6) Commited two murders and one (what we in UK would call) "attempted murder"

... then please provide a rebuttal the assertions listed above (or take the cognitive ability test)
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/11/20 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Fluffi



Come on Aran... Lets have cards on the table...

I fought to defend my country (and it really fucked my life up)...
What have you or this "Hey - look at me - I'm in the militia" idiot done for your country??


1 day later - no Aran response - no surprise


2 days later - still no Aran response - no surprise

Would you like me to reply and correct you where you are wrong? I won't waste my time if you think I'm an idiot.

I'm voting for Trump.



How exactly do you intend to "correct me where I'm wrong?"

I challenged Aran to respond on the 5th Sept.
On the 6th Sept I pointed-out that he hadn't replied.
On the 7th Sept I pointed-out that he hadn't replied.
As of today - 11th Sept, he stil hasn't replied.

Are you telling me that Aran made a magical response which is visible to all the posters here except me?
If so, I would challenge you to undergo the Republican trope which is aimed at Biden, and get your cognitive abilities tested.


... or are you suggesting that I was incorrect in my original assertion that Rittenhouse...

1) Was carrying a firearm he was not legally allowed to own
2) Twice crossed a state border carrying said firearm
3) Was illegally out on the streets after curfew
4) Shot somebody who threw a plastic bag with a water bottle in it at him
5) Shot two others
6) Commited two murders and one (what we in UK would call) "attempted murder"

... then please provide a rebuttal the assertions listed above (or take the cognitive ability test)

Number two is not correct. I'm not going to get the information for you. If you won't believe me that's fine.

In fact.. I'm not sure I'm going to come back.

It sucks talking politics with people who don't actually follow it.
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/12/20 04:11 AM

What?

Number 2 is wrong?
Are you kidding me?


Kyle lived in Antioch (Illinois)
Kyle commited murder in Kenosha (Wisconsin)
Therefore he carried an illegal firearm from Illinois to Wisconsin
Strike 1

Kyle was arrested in Antioch (Illinois) (with his weapon)
Therefore he carried an illegal firearm from Wisconsin to Illinois
Strike 2

Where did I get this wrong?


You "don't want to talk politics with people who don't understand it" and I understand that completely - I have a history on this forum of shouting at idiots commenting on the "Northern Ireland situation" when they have no comprehension of what they are actually talking about.

... so, as we are both supposed to be adults, let's take all political opinions out of the debate entirely...


I have never pretended to understand your convoluted gun laws, so am willing to be educated...

I fly to America on holiday.
I land in La Guardia (NY)
I hit the streets and buy an illegal firearm from a street-hood.
("illegal firearm" is this sense doesn't mean that I have bought a full-auto or a minigun - it means that under US law I am not allowed to possess this weapon.)

I now wander across a few state lines during the course of my holiday; carrying my illegal weapon with me at all times.

Am I now guilty of the offence of carrying an illegal weapon across state lines?

YES or NO ??


If YES, please explain the difference between me and Kyle.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/12/20 04:56 AM

It wasn't Kyle's gun, it was his friend in Wisconsin's gun. It never crossed state lines.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/12/20 02:55 PM

Ok... Here's the deal.

There isn't enough traffic here anymore. You have forgot who I am, or ... Things have changed to the point that maybe we just don't know each other anymore. Maybe a bit of both.

We, all of us with the exception of Aran who post at least weekly, are trying to put months of shit into single posts let alone threads and that isn't healthy. It's just going to breed hate.

I like the people here. Maybe if I got to know you all again I wouldn't. It's possible. But doing this right before an election isn't going to build anything. Only tear shit down.

I refuse. I might be back after the elections. Actually, it's not likely true. I'll likely come in and see what's going on every day... I am just not going to post. Not until the insanity is done.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/12/20 03:57 PM

I don't even put a single thought per post
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/13/20 09:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Aran
It wasn't Kyle's gun, it was his friend in Wisconsin's gun. It never crossed state lines.



* citation needed *


....but if you are correct....

then Kyle is ONLY guilty of:

1) being out on the streets after curfew
2) being in possession of an illegal firearm
3) murder
4) attmepted murder


Tell me how this makes him the "good guy" in this scenario.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/16/20 10:07 PM

Self-defense*
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/17/20 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Aran
Self-defense*


I'm not sure what you are saying here Aran....

Are you saying that as a non-legal-weapon owner, and a visitor to your house, I could borrow your rifle and legally shoot people because "Hey man, they were shouting at me because I had shot one of them: so I felt threatoned"


This isn't a Reps / Dems argument.

Just bin your "civvies having weapons" laws.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/17/20 11:00 PM

How do you get dumber with every post
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/22/20 10:06 PM

Posted by: Drakken Payne

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/25/20 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Zin


That's a very nice piece of propaganda.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/26/20 04:51 AM

"This does not conform to my worldview, therefore it is propaganda" - A retard
Posted by: Drakken Payne

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/29/20 09:01 PM

For the slow kid in the class...

prop·a·gan·da


noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

1.
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 09/30/20 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Drakken Payne
For the slow kid in the class...

prop·a·gan·da


noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

1.
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

I suggest you show where it's factually wrong. That would help with the argument.
Posted by: Drakken Payne

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/01/20 08:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Zin

I suggest you show where it's factually wrong. That would help with the argument.


Never said that it was wrong, and it doesn't have to be to be propaganda.

It does come off, to me, as though it was planned specifically for something like this.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/01/20 10:54 PM

"Well it might be right but but... I DON'T LIKE IT!"
Posted by: Drakken Payne

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/02/20 12:16 AM

Look! Aran thinks someone cares about what he says!!!
Posted by: Zin

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/02/20 07:54 PM

Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/08/20 05:38 PM

Who is "Drakken Payne" again?
Posted by: Drakken Payne

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/12/20 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Aran
Who is "Drakken Payne" again?


No one of importance.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/13/20 03:22 PM

obv
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/15/20 06:20 AM

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-update...ges-in-illinois

Quote:
Lake County, Ill. State's Attorney Michael Nerheim's office said in a statement that an investigation conducted by local police "revealed the gun used in the Kenosha shooting was purchased, stored and used in Wisconsin."

"Additionally, there is no evidence the gun was ever physically possessed by Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois," the state's attorney's office added.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/16/20 09:06 AM

OH MY GOD ONE DAY LATER NO FLUFFI RESPONSE WHAT A SURPRISE
Posted by: Fluffi

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/17/20 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Aran
OH MY GOD ONE DAY LATER NO FLUFFI RESPONSE WHAT A SURPRISE


Here is the difference between you and me:

I will admit I WAS WRONG.


I dont watch US media 24/7 - I rely on "the internet" for data concening foreign countries... and by "the internet" I mean sources such as Reuters, Bloomberg, BBC, NBC, NHK, ZDF, and I even read Al Jazheira.

I based my statements on the initial reporting from these multiple sources - they got it wrong - so did I - and for that I apologise.

Fluffi.
Posted by: Aran

Re: The End Of America ????? - 10/19/20 10:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Aran
OH MY GOD ONE DAY LATER NO FLUFFI RESPONSE WHAT A SURPRISE


Here is the difference between you and me:

I will admit I WAS WRONG.


I dont watch US media 24/7 - I rely on "the internet" for data concening foreign countries... and by "the internet" I mean sources such as Reuters, Bloomberg, BBC, NBC, NHK, ZDF, and I even read Al Jazheira.

I based my statements on the initial reporting from these multiple sources - they got it wrong - so did I - and for that I apologise.

Fluffi.



When I get it wrong, I admit it.


Sorry you don't see me admitting I'm wrong when I'm not