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#105830 - 02/10/19 03:22 AM Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer
Fanny Adams Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 2226
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Okay, we know each other's position on the standard arguments around gun control, abortion, religion, etc., so coming up with a new topic is pretty hard in here. However, I had a conversation at work on Friday that gave me a clue that there might be some more nuances in the Gillette controversy than I had seen.

I have to admit, when I first saw the ad, my thoughts were basically, "The 'good' guys will understand that this isn't directed at them, and only those who identify with the sexist behaviour are going to feel 'guilty' or 'attacked' by this ad." Pretty typical leftie reaction, eh? However, it came up in conversation with a guy at work (he brought it up) that I would never have considered sexist in any way or have looked at sideways as a potential rapist. Really nice guy, one that I interact with quite a lot at work, so know his work persona pretty well, and would have picked to be pretty left in most of his thinking. Yet he was highly offended by this ad. Thought it was making sweeping generalisations and depicting "all" men as bbqing morons and potential rapists.

It made me think. If this bloke could see that ad as attack on men in general, then maybe there is some merit in the anti-Gillette reactions. Sooo.... my question to you, OT community, is "How do you react to the Gillette ad? Are you offended? Do you ignore it, knowing that it isn't targeting you? What was your initial reaction? Did you change that reaction after thinking about it for a while?" *Genuinely curious*


Edited by Fanny Adams (02/10/19 03:24 AM)
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#105831 - 02/10/19 12:03 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Fanny Adams]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4161
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Fanny Adams
Okay, we know each other's position on the standard arguments around gun control, abortion, religion, etc., so coming up with a new topic is pretty hard in here. However, I had a conversation at work on Friday that gave me a clue that there might be some more nuances in the Gillette controversy than I had seen.

I have to admit, when I first saw the ad, my thoughts were basically, "The 'good' guys will understand that this isn't directed at them, and only those who identify with the sexist behaviour are going to feel 'guilty' or 'attacked' by this ad." Pretty typical leftie reaction, eh? However, it came up in conversation with a guy at work (he brought it up) that I would never have considered sexist in any way or have looked at sideways as a potential rapist. Really nice guy, one that I interact with quite a lot at work, so know his work persona pretty well, and would have picked to be pretty left in most of his thinking. Yet he was highly offended by this ad. Thought it was making sweeping generalisations and depicting "all" men as bbqing morons and potential rapists.

It made me think. If this bloke could see that ad as attack on men in general, then maybe there is some merit in the anti-Gillette reactions. Sooo.... my question to you, OT community, is "How do you react to the Gillette ad? Are you offended? Do you ignore it, knowing that it isn't targeting you? What was your initial reaction? Did you change that reaction after thinking about it for a while?" *Genuinely curious*

It straight up attacks masculinity.

*ponders*

This is going to take a while. I read this, I'll be back.

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#105832 - 02/10/19 01:35 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4161
Loc: Iowa
Ok... This Vid:



1) It starts out odd enough... Seems men looking at themselves and unsure of what they are seeing... In a mirror. mmm... k Starts talking about Toxic Masculinity. Straight up turn off right there.

Why?

Because like a gun masculinity is not good or bad. It just is. Masculinity is traits generally found in men... That's all it means. So when it says Toxic Masculinity, it's talking to all of us. Accusing all of us. The directer of this is an off the rails feminist. More than likely a woman not to understand this.

2) :10 Ok... Kid comes out of a screen being chased by other male kids. Running from obvious fear of being harmed. I get this. It is a more of a male trait to include violence in disagreements. However where I'm from that's one kid chasing another kid to fight him, and the others are just wanting to watch. This is how the major rural places in America is going to see it if they are male. I'm not saying it's right, I am saying the ad is misleading based on the surrounding material.

The name calling... This is not a Masculine trait.. It's a human trait. But if it was going to be labeled something, it should be feminine. Group tactics and name calling... Seriously... stop and think about that.

3) :28 Mansplaining. "What I think she meant to say" ...

Define: the explanation of something by a man, typically to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.

Newsflash... The guy who does that to woman, also does it to other guys.

4) :33 Boys will be boys... Uhhh... What the fuck? They are rough housing. That's playing. Puppies, kittens, damn near every predatory animal does this. I'll grant you there is a lot of things that separate us for the other animals on earth, but we are still animals. This is completely natural.

Watch that ad, even in the commercial they are having fun.

5) :40 They PUT THE YOUNG TURKS in the commercial... Holy fuck. Politics?

6) :54 Terry "Men need to hold other men accountable" ... Umm... Yeah... It's a masculine trait to take initiative against perceived wrongs. Right? Isn't that what the ad is asking for? Stop masculinity by being masculine? Refer back to #1

Don't allow your kids to be masculine ( refer back to boys will be boys #4 ), but they should be masculine enough to stop masculinity... Right.

7) :58 "Smile sweety"... I don't have a problem with that. Other than to say you have one man addressing two, and one of them is much larger than he is. It took damn near a minute into the commercial for them to show masculinity as a positive.

8) 1:01 "Not cool"... An attractive woman trying to look attractive... He goes to speak to her. Why is that not cool? What is that? The guy didn't do anything wrong. I mean he's likely going to be shot down, but... You don't know unless you get shot down.

9) "SOME IS NOT ENOUGH"

Some is not enough... That just told me that at least half the men I know are Toxic Masculinity. I mean how that's phrased likely means majority, but lets just go with half. My brothers and friends... Half of them have toxic masculinity.

Fuck Gillette.

Am I offended by this? No... But I absolutely hate identity politics. Tribalism. Bigots. This ad has all of them.

I'm hardly perfect but this ad really isn't talking to me. But I would be hypocrite to support it.

I've stood up for women, homosexuals, and wise cracking men who shouldn't be pissing off people who can beat their ass... I *still* like going around the mall saying "Merry Christmas" to piss off the people who are actually offended by the term.

I'll happily stand up for those who need it. Even at 40 something I'll still happily fight... But I won't support what this commercial stands for.


Identity politics. Tribalism. Bigots.

Edit:

Tim Pool's view on it is... A lot like mine. But he's a Democrat, and self described leftist.




Edited by Zin (02/10/19 03:40 PM)

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#105834 - 02/14/19 09:25 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Drakken Payne Offline
Mostly Harmless
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4225
First of all, I think this is a completely overblown non-issue of a commercial.

Gillette, like any company, is simply trying to sell a product. They're simply jumping on this pro-feminism "me too" thing because it's a current hot button issue, and I seriously doubt they really care one way or the other...so long as it's talked about and their products (for both men and women) sell. No such thing as bad publicity and all of that.

I personally don't care, I'm not offended, and if you are offended you're a fucking idiot.


Now, having said that, I have a few...not really issues...whatever, with a few things that Zin has said. Not an attack on you, Zin, just my opinions.


Originally Posted By: Zin


1) Masculinity is traits generally found in men... That's all it means. So when it says Toxic Masculinity, it's talking to all of us.


Yes, it's a trait generally found in men. No, it's not talking to all men. It's talking to assholes. While the two things are not mutually exclusive, they are definitely not synonymous. You can be one or the other, or both.





Quote:
5) :40 They PUT THE YOUNG TURKS in the commercial... Holy fuck. Politics?


Almost everything is political on some level. Or at least it can be made to be so. This issue definitely has been/is. Should it be? Maybe not, but this is where we're at.

Quote:
6) :54 Terry "Men need to hold other men accountable" ...


Well, he's right. Much in the same way that the good police need to hold the bad police accountable, as it makes them all bad to just look the other way.


Quote:
7) :58 "Smile sweety"...


8) An attractive woman trying to look attractive... He goes to speak to her. Why is that not cool? What is that? The guy didn't do anything wrong. I mean he's likely going to be shot down, but... You don't know unless you get shot down.


I totally get why women hate this kind of shit. Frankly, I think guys who do it are douche-bags. I mean, I'd get pretty fucking irritated if I were just trying to go about my day and kept getting hit on at every opportunity. Well, maybe I personally wouldn't, but I get it.



Quote:
I *still* like going around the mall saying "Merry Christmas" to piss off the people who are actually offended by the term.


Not for nothing, but I find it's more the "Merry Christmas" people who get offended by the use of "Happy Holidays." That's my experience, anyway. Fuck those people.

So, what I get from this advertisement, aside from the company trying to use a hot issue to sell razors, is "Don't be a fucking asshole, douche-bag." And I'm OK with that.
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#105835 - 02/15/19 12:00 AM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Drakken Payne]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4161
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Drakken Payne
First of all, I think this is a completely overblown non-issue of a commercial.

Gillette, like any company, is simply trying to sell a product. They're simply jumping on this pro-feminism "me too" thing because it's a current hot button issue, and I seriously doubt they really care one way or the other...so long as it's talked about and their products (for both men and women) sell. No such thing as bad publicity and all of that.

*shrugs*

I'll never buy one of their products again.

Quote:
I personally don't care, I'm not offended, and if you are offended you're a fucking idiot.

I don't have a problem with that.


Quote:
Now, having said that, I have a few...not really issues...whatever, with a few things that Zin has said. Not an attack on you, Zin, just my opinions.

None taken.


Quote:
Originally Posted By: Zin


1) Masculinity is traits generally found in men... That's all it means. So when it says Toxic Masculinity, it's talking to all of us.


Yes, it's a trait generally found in men. No, it's not talking to all men. It's talking to assholes. While the two things are not mutually exclusive, they are definitely not synonymous. You can be one or the other, or both.

If you don't agree that masculinity isn't a good or bad thing, it is just traits found in a majority of men... Then I see why you say this.

But I disagree.




Quote:
Quote:
5) :40 They PUT THE YOUNG TURKS in the commercial... Holy fuck. Politics?


Almost everything is political on some level. Or at least it can be made to be so. This issue definitely has been/is. Should it be? Maybe not, but this is where we're at.

I'll happily say I'd love it for companies not to be political. Frankly I don't believe companies are people and should not "vote" with giving money to politicians. So I'm always going to be against it.

Quote:
Quote:
6) :54 Terry "Men need to hold other men accountable" ...


Well, he's right. Much in the same way that the good police need to hold the bad police accountable, as it makes them all bad to just look the other way.

Obviously I disagree with what they find as the problem. As such, I won't hold other men accountable to the terms they have laid out within the commercial, which is what we are talking about.


Quote:
Quote:
7) :58 "Smile sweety"...


8) An attractive woman trying to look attractive... He goes to speak to her. Why is that not cool? What is that? The guy didn't do anything wrong. I mean he's likely going to be shot down, but... You don't know unless you get shot down.


I totally get why women hate this kind of shit. Frankly, I think guys who do it are douche-bags. I mean, I'd get pretty fucking irritated if I were just trying to go about my day and kept getting hit on at every opportunity. Well, maybe I personally wouldn't, but I get it.

Then I'm a douche-bag too. In your mind anyway. I'm ok with that. I would however say that it wouldn't be a good idea to try to stop me. Don't get me wrong, a single word from HER would do the trick. But there is only three people on this earth that have the ability to stop me from talking to someone without repercussions, and I'm pretty sure not one of them would.

Understand I say this in the context of the commercial. It's pretty damn hard to catch my eye to the point that I want to address a woman I don't know... I'm not letting that opportunity pass. It's too damn rare.


Quote:
Quote:
I *still* like going around the mall saying "Merry Christmas" to piss off the people who are actually offended by the term.


Not for nothing, but I find it's more the "Merry Christmas" people who get offended by the use of "Happy Holidays." That's my experience, anyway. Fuck those people.

I agree... If it was the other way around where I'm from I would be doing the opposite and say "Happy Holidays"... But.. that's not the way it is where I'm from. I agree, fuck those people.

Quote:
So, what I get from this advertisement, aside from the company trying to use a hot issue to sell razors, is "Don't be a fucking asshole, douche-bag." And I'm OK with that.

Fair enough... I think the main thing that needs to happen to stop the bullshit here is to get rid of "masculinity" bullshit. Instead... Don't be an asshole/douche-bag.

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