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#105854 - 03/26/19 11:40 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Gruggo]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4183
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Sawo
There are no male toxisity amongst ISIL

You're right... There's not.

I agree with Gruggo... It's not about Masculinity... It's about assholes.
To be fair, I think it was Drakken who made the point about it being about assholes first.

Ok, I agree with both of you then. *shrugs*

Quote:
Quote:
The only problem here is... They didn't say that.
Well, that's how I took it when they started the commercial off by stating toxic masculinity. They weren't talking about all masculinity, just toxic masculinity. Just because you might disagree with their examples of what constitutes toxic masculinity does not mean they didn't target it.

*blink*blink*

That the commercial was calling me toxic, that *I* have toxic masculinity. Do we agree on that?

Now, I agree that it wasn't *supposed* be to directed at me, but it was. Because I can not in good conscience back that kind of propaganda.

I am absolutely for equality of sexes. I am absolutely for the union of two people regardless of their sex or religion. Hell, I don't care if people get married to multiple people. No shits given.

But I have done, and will continue to do, what some of those men have done in that first commercial. Therefor I have toxic masculinity.

Do we agree?


Edited by Zin (03/26/19 11:45 PM)

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#105855 - 03/26/19 11:45 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Gruggo]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4183
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin

This is what I think Gillette was trying to do... And failed miserably.
Nah, this ad has a different meaning. This ad was a little passive and more about the women. The Gillette one was purposely attacking toxic masculinity. I live in NYC, some people here are living embodiments of the Gillette ad in attacking toxic masculinity.

You're right... This one was different. It just talked about people being assholes. Gender had no meaning in this, just like someone being an asshole. It's a gender-less state of being.

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#105856 - 03/27/19 04:22 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Gruggo Offline
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Drakken Payne
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
With regard to the guy approaching the girl on the street, it seems to depend on 1) what he is going to say and/or 2) whether the girls would find him attractive or not. Hard to make the case of it being “toxic” if those factors change the scenario.


I would submit that it also depends on whether the guy is the type of guy to hit on every semi-attractive woman he sees whether the situation is appropriate for that sort of thing or not.

In a bar or some other social setting? Yeah, OK. Just walking down the street? Not so much, at least in my opinion.
Not sure how often a guy does it affects the question of whether it is inappropriate or not.

With regard to the setting, I somewhat agree. The more social the setting, the more understandable it is for someone to approach someone else. However, have we really gotten to the point where it is not acceptable to approach someone else on the street to meet them? I'm not commenting on guys that are offensive in how they approach a woman. Those cases are more clearer as being wrong, but the commercial shows one guy stopping another guy from even approaching the woman. That's seems to be over-inclusive as to wrong toxic masculinity. They should have gone with the stereotypical image of construction workers heckling a woman on the street.

That actually would have made sense. BUT... The commercial did go out of it's way to promote that it was the majority of men that was the problem. How is it possible you don't see that?
What exactly are you responding to in what I said? My comment was talking about the one example of the guy approaching the girl on the street.

As you've said in a different post, "masculinity" is a loosely defined set of behavior that is typically done by males. As such, any negative repercussions from engaging in these bahaviors is usually excused as part of being a man (e.g. boys will be boys). However, recently, some claim that some of those behaviors are "toxic" and should not tolerated or indirectly condoned. This ad is one of them.

I have no problem with the ad making this type of a message. My only problem is that some of the examples in the ad are over-reaching when it points out problematic behavior. The guy approaching the girl on the street being a prime example.

To the extent that you are asking who is the target of this ad. I would say anyone who engages in this behavior, directly encourages this behavior, condones this behavior or tacitly allows this behavior to continue. The main target is men, but can include women as women can definitely be complicit in endorsing such a culture.

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#105857 - 03/27/19 04:37 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Gruggo Offline
enthusiast
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Sawo
There are no male toxisity amongst ISIL

You're right... There's not.

I agree with Gruggo... It's not about Masculinity... It's about assholes.
To be fair, I think it was Drakken who made the point about it being about assholes first.

Ok, I agree with both of you then. *shrugs*

Quote:
Quote:
The only problem here is... They didn't say that.
Well, that's how I took it when they started the commercial off by stating toxic masculinity. They weren't talking about all masculinity, just toxic masculinity. Just because you might disagree with their examples of what constitutes toxic masculinity does not mean they didn't target it.

*blink*blink*

That the commercial was calling me toxic, that *I* have toxic masculinity. Do we agree on that?

Now, I agree that it wasn't *supposed* be to directed at me, but it was. Because I can not in good conscience back that kind of propaganda.

I am absolutely for equality of sexes. I am absolutely for the union of two people regardless of their sex or religion. Hell, I don't care if people get married to multiple people. No shits given.

But I have done, and will continue to do, what some of those men have done in that first commercial. Therefor I have toxic masculinity.

Do we agree?
Sure. I agree. By your own statement, you are a target of this ad. and so... what's your point?

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#105858 - 03/27/19 06:52 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Gruggo]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4183
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Sawo
There are no male toxisity amongst ISIL

You're right... There's not.

I agree with Gruggo... It's not about Masculinity... It's about assholes.
To be fair, I think it was Drakken who made the point about it being about assholes first.

Ok, I agree with both of you then. *shrugs*

Quote:
Quote:
The only problem here is... They didn't say that.
Well, that's how I took it when they started the commercial off by stating toxic masculinity. They weren't talking about all masculinity, just toxic masculinity. Just because you might disagree with their examples of what constitutes toxic masculinity does not mean they didn't target it.

*blink*blink*

That the commercial was calling me toxic, that *I* have toxic masculinity. Do we agree on that?

Now, I agree that it wasn't *supposed* be to directed at me, but it was. Because I can not in good conscience back that kind of propaganda.

I am absolutely for equality of sexes. I am absolutely for the union of two people regardless of their sex or religion. Hell, I don't care if people get married to multiple people. No shits given.

But I have done, and will continue to do, what some of those men have done in that first commercial. Therefor I have toxic masculinity.

Do we agree?
Sure. I agree. By your own statement, you are a target of this ad. and so... what's your point?

My point you have addressed already:

Quote:
I have no problem with the ad making this type of a message. My only problem is that some of the examples in the ad are over-reaching when it points out problematic behavior. The guy approaching the girl on the street being a prime example.

The only reason I'm targeted by this ad is BECAUSE of the "over-reaching"

I define that as a problem. You seem to think it less so. o.0

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#105859 - 03/28/19 11:24 AM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Gruggo Offline
enthusiast
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Sawo
There are no male toxisity amongst ISIL

You're right... There's not.

I agree with Gruggo... It's not about Masculinity... It's about assholes.
To be fair, I think it was Drakken who made the point about it being about assholes first.

Ok, I agree with both of you then. *shrugs*

Quote:
Quote:
The only problem here is... They didn't say that.
Well, that's how I took it when they started the commercial off by stating toxic masculinity. They weren't talking about all masculinity, just toxic masculinity. Just because you might disagree with their examples of what constitutes toxic masculinity does not mean they didn't target it.

*blink*blink*

That the commercial was calling me toxic, that *I* have toxic masculinity. Do we agree on that?

Now, I agree that it wasn't *supposed* be to directed at me, but it was. Because I can not in good conscience back that kind of propaganda.

I am absolutely for equality of sexes. I am absolutely for the union of two people regardless of their sex or religion. Hell, I don't care if people get married to multiple people. No shits given.

But I have done, and will continue to do, what some of those men have done in that first commercial. Therefor I have toxic masculinity.

Do we agree?
Sure. I agree. By your own statement, you are a target of this ad. and so... what's your point?

My point you have addressed already:

Quote:
I have no problem with the ad making this type of a message. My only problem is that some of the examples in the ad are over-reaching when it points out problematic behavior. The guy approaching the girl on the street being a prime example.

The only reason I'm targeted by this ad is BECAUSE of the "over-reaching"

I define that as a problem. You seem to think it less so. o.0
lol. I thought I said "My only problem..."

In general, I don't have a problem with being challenged in my viewpoints or behavior. I recognize that toxic masculinity can be a problem and it results from people sticking to their way of thinking without considering other perspectives or changing times. Women are being more assertive these days and some behaviors that were acceptable before are rightly so not acceptable nowadays. When challenged on these types of things, I think it best to think about it in light of the changed circumstances and come to some rational conclusion as to whether I believe in it and whether I'm willing to change. I believe that you have done so as well in this situation. However, I find it silly and counterproductive to get "offended" or suggest that the challenge not be made in the first place as it only seeks to improve things.

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#105860 - 03/28/19 08:21 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Gruggo]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4183
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
lol. I thought I said "My only problem..."

You did... But you aren't treating it as if it is an actual problem. And that's important. Well.. to me anyway.

Quote:
Women are being more assertive these days and some behaviors that were acceptable before are rightly so not acceptable nowadays.

Women being more assertive or traditional masculinity? Now I know where you were trying to go for here, but that's part of the point I'm trying to make here. Being assertive about the wrong things hurts the end goal.

Quote:
When challenged on these types of things, I think it best to think about it in light of the changed circumstances and come to some rational conclusion as to whether I believe in it and whether I'm willing to change. I believe that you have done so as well in this situation. However, I find it silly and counterproductive to get "offended" or suggest that the challenge not be made in the first place as it only seeks to improve things.

Exactly... My end goal and what is supposed to be the end goal of feminists is the exact same. So when someone/some entity who is supposed to be an ally on a issue makes silly and counterproductive arguments ( how they define toxic masculinity ) I'm going to take issue with it... Because it does not improve things.

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#105861 - 04/01/19 11:21 AM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Gruggo Offline
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
lol. I thought I said "My only problem..."

You did... But you aren't treating it as if it is an actual problem. And that's important. Well.. to me anyway.
lol... so you want something more than me saying it is a problem? Chances of getting more of a reaction from me on this other than that are slim... especially in light of what I say below.

Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
Women are being more assertive these days and some behaviors that were acceptable before are rightly so not acceptable nowadays.

Women being more assertive or traditional masculinity? Now I know where you were trying to go for here, but that's part of the point I'm trying to make here. Being assertive about the wrong things hurts the end goal.
I have no idea what you meant by your question. The second part of what you say is addressed below.

Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
When challenged on these types of things, I think it best to think about it in light of the changed circumstances and come to some rational conclusion as to whether I believe in it and whether I'm willing to change. I believe that you have done so as well in this situation. However, I find it silly and counterproductive to get "offended" or suggest that the challenge not be made in the first place as it only seeks to improve things.

Exactly... My end goal and what is supposed to be the end goal of feminists is the exact same. So when someone/some entity who is supposed to be an ally on a issue makes silly and counterproductive arguments ( how they define toxic masculinity ) I'm going to take issue with it... Because it does not improve things.
I strongly disagree. What is necessary to improve things is to have a dialogue about the issue. So taking a position about what constitutes toxic masculinity and you disagreeing with it promotes such a discussion is exactly what is necessary to bring about improvement.

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#105862 - 04/01/19 06:08 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Gruggo]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4183
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Gruggo
I strongly disagree. What is necessary to improve things is to have a dialogue about the issue. So taking a position about what constitutes toxic masculinity and you disagreeing with it promotes such a discussion is exactly what is necessary to bring about improvement.

It's your belief that the maker of the film, and Gillette, promoted beliefs that were not their own in which to create this discussion?

Edit: Listen... I agree with what you are saying... But I don't think Gillette was wanting to discuss it. I think it wanted it to be discussed with it's name attached to it.

And the best way I can think of to say you did the wrong thing is to hurt their pocket book... So that's what I'll do.

I am interested in the answers you have asked others... I admit that.


Edited by Zin (04/01/19 06:14 PM)

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#105863 - 04/10/19 06:08 PM Re: Okay, new topic and maybe this will get an interesting answer [Re: Zin]
Aran Offline
Aryan Dreamboat
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Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4166
Men need to quit being pussies and beat up fags who make shit like that video.

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