Topic Options
#105597 - 03/20/18 03:40 AM Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd.
Jango Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 1641
Loc: Seattle, WA
Alright, so you know how there's a lot of racists coming out of the woodwork thanks to Trump being a piss poor example of a human being and all? And you know how you’d likely be labeled a racist by all those brainwashed morons who think its racist when, you're just stating fact is all, GOD!

Like, I know the argument for racism because I used to be kind of racist...and still am to a degree tbh, I'm not sure. But…..black people constitute a small fraction of our population yet commit the majority of crimes, by far, per capita or whatever…they can’t rule themselves, every African nation is a goddamn war-torn mess, take a look at Haiti, let’s talk more about Haiti, and finally…there’s Haiti. Jesus Christ, Haiti. And these “people” aren’t even in the same genome, or something. They lack some specific gene that white people have, probably the one that keeps us all from being a bunch of whiney, self-victimized bitches that, aside from accidentally inventing peanut butter, haven’t done a damn thing for civilization except corrupt it with our existence. Saw it on Discovery.

Thug life, yo, their popular culture consists of little more than superficial self-promotion, cause life aint nothing but bitches and money, ya’all. Now where da white women at? Etc etc.

Now say that’s all true…and that there’s no other variables to explain anything, blacks just suck really really hard.

Well before there was thug life…back when black people were given their freedom…they were slapped around pretty good…beaten, hanged etc for sucking just...so really really hard. White people just fucken hated them, just fucken…oooh, hated them so good. Well, why though? What was there to hate about blacks back then? Aside from them being black, I mean?

That’s an honest question, I can understand some hatred when there’s something to base it on, but to just really, really hate someone because they’re black?

Okay, now you can come up with a plethora of ready-made arguments after ten minutes on a white nationalist websites and have some good reason to be up in arms over these black bastards.
But…what’s the end game in that? “Hey, here’s some really great reasons to hate the living hell out of those fuckers, read up, pass it along, there's no way this doesn't end up any way but GREAT!"
Okay, the rallies have served their purpose, we all hate each other that much more...now what? In what way does this play out any other way but horribly, you know?

In other words, if a racist could ask for something that’s a realistic alternative to the way things are now, what would that something be and how should we go about getting there?

Anyway, that's all. And I'm not going to argue, I don't think, it'd just be interesting as hell to get an honest answer as to what people are thinking.
Maybe there's some event horizon for hate we just need to reach? We wear ourselves out and get too tired to fight anymore?

Top
#105600 - 03/22/18 09:22 PM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Jango]
baraka66 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
***

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 5375
Maybe you should vote for Trump.
_________________________

Top
#105602 - 03/25/18 09:48 PM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Jango]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4117
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Jango
Alright, so you know how there's a lot of racists coming out of the woodwork thanks to Trump being a piss poor example of a human being and all? And you know how you’d likely be labeled a racist by all those brainwashed morons who think its racist when, you're just stating fact is all, GOD!

Like, I know the argument for racism because I used to be kind of racist...and still am to a degree tbh, I'm not sure. But…..black people constitute a small fraction of our population yet commit the majority of crimes, by far, per capita or whatever…they can’t rule themselves, every African nation is a goddamn war-torn mess, take a look at Haiti, let’s talk more about Haiti, and finally…there’s Haiti. Jesus Christ, Haiti. And these “people” aren’t even in the same genome, or something. They lack some specific gene that white people have, probably the one that keeps us all from being a bunch of whiney, self-victimized bitches that, aside from accidentally inventing peanut butter, haven’t done a damn thing for civilization except corrupt it with our existence. Saw it on Discovery.

Mmm... I fuck'n hate identity politics.

But you didn't take it far enough Jango. It's not the genes... It's that they are both from poor areas.

Quote:
Thug life, yo, their popular culture consists of little more than superficial self-promotion, cause life aint nothing but bitches and money, ya’all. Now where da white women at? Etc etc.

Now say that’s all true…and that there’s no other variables to explain anything, blacks just suck really really hard.

Not really. If you are poor then you are fighting with people who are just as desperate as you are to get to where they believe they should be. It's almost sad that it's just "middle class" they are aiming for.

But back to the point... Someone who shows both they are capable AND willing to take actions to make their lives better are more likely to actually do so. It's almost mandatory to show that you are WILLING to do so, and then make sure others know of it. Don't fuck with me. Don't fuck with people I care about.

I mean hell... You get in these larger cities and you see these poor people running around in 100 dollar plus shoes. That is a status symbol... Absolutely. But it's not really what you think it is... It's more about look at them, see how nice they are... *I STILL HAVE THEM* Try to take them from me. This is who I am.

If you are a weak individual running around the poor side of town with shoes like that, you don't get to keep your nice clothes.

Quote:
Well before there was thug life…back when black people were given their freedom…they were slapped around pretty good…beaten, hanged etc for sucking just...so really really hard. White people just fucken hated them, just fucken…oooh, hated them so good. Well, why though? What was there to hate about blacks back then? Aside from them being black, I mean?

They were slaves. They had to pretend, had to KNOW, they were less than human, otherwise who owned them were the monsters. Mogwai if you will.

Quote:
That’s an honest question, I can understand some hatred when there’s something to base it on, but to just really, really hate someone because they’re black?

Nope... Had to hate them because if they didn't, they would have no choice but to hate themselves. Well.. Some of them anyway. There were quite a few I'm sure that would happily just make themselves and their children more well off on the backs of slaves. But pretty sure they were a minority and frankly the type that the rest of us would have run out of society.

It sucks to say, but there were a lot of good people who owned slaves. They really did think they were doing the slaves a favor treating them like they did. Good people, good intentions, can be wrong.

Quote:
In other words, if a racist could ask for something that’s a realistic alternative to the way things are now, what would that something be and how should we go about getting there?

There is no realistic alternative to the question posed. Not at this time anyway.

Quote:
Anyway, that's all. And I'm not going to argue, I don't think, it'd just be interesting as hell to get an honest answer as to what people are thinking.
Maybe there's some event horizon for hate we just need to reach? We wear ourselves out and get too tired to fight anymore?

Top
#105607 - 03/26/18 05:13 AM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Zin]
Jango Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 1641
Loc: Seattle, WA
Interesting man, I'd heard some of this stuff...like back in the late 80's, early nineties there was a lot of jewelry going on, the Mr. T chains and stuff, and yeah apparently that was about respect more than trying to show off your stuff.

The part about white people hating themselves though...that's interesting as hell. I mean, at first it sounds a little goofy, but yeah, it seems like something to think on for awhile.

By the way, I appreciate the explanation about self motivation and all that, but it seems like there's also a way where there's a will when it comes to trying to learn too. And I've learned a lot since the days when I had black people all figured out, you know?

I once was read about how they'd segregate cities out during the planning stages back in the day, often using the railroad tracks as a divider. That people really did get stuck on the wrong side of the tracks, the houses were more shoddily built, there were fewer parks, amenities or whatever.
And of course, since a lot of funding for schools comes from property taxes, you've got much lower quality schools in an area and BAM, suddenly there was something tangible to show that at the very least, it wasn't always all about nature.

And of course, the more you know, the more you realize how very little you know and the harder it is to pigeon-hole...all those black people living next sto....

You ever read the comment sections under stories on Yahoo or wherever? And there's always the "Dindu Nuffin" comment under a story about black crime. Or the "Where was BLM, HUH?? And I engaged one of these creeps the other day and he actually came across as pretty reasonable. "Objectively speaking, its perfectly reasonable to blah blah"
Another post later and he's like, "Oprah Winfrey mother fucker! If she can make it then black people have no excuse, NO EXCUSE!"
And his next post was just, "F*CK YOU YOU F*CKEN NI@@ER LOVING CUCK!"

I kind of think that dude might not have been all that objective to begin with. Seemed almost like he already had his mind made up lol

Just some dude with anger issues who probably says the same shit to everyone that engages him, starting off with the appearance of being reasonable. Or maybe he'll eventually add a disclaimer. "Hey friend, here's my pitch, but ultimately I'm really hoping that we can come together in our hate, so...hear me out!

Lol anyway, that's interesting stuff man. I don't know if I believe it, but I never thought about it before so its definitely worth thinking about, yo. =]

Top
#105608 - 03/26/18 05:23 AM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Zin]
Jango Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 1641
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
It sucks to say, but there were a lot of good people who owned slaves.

This guy, you ever hear of Adam Carrola? He does a good bit about this as far as it just being the time it was. There wasn't anything wrong with it way back in the day, so morality wasn't really in the picture at all.
I get what you're saying, its just funny that today we'll see it a lot in Hollywood. If the movie is set back in 1816 or whatever, the protagonist is probably going to make a show of just how much he laments this whole slavery thing. Yeah its a part of life but dangit, he just wishes it wasn't. Its just not right!

In reality, that dude probably didn't look twice. Its just the way it was back then, period, you know? Socially accepted, not an issue, not something to think about or look twice at. Starting to seem like these movies aren't all that realistic!

Top
#105609 - 03/26/18 05:24 AM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: baraka66]
Jango Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 1641
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: baraka66
Maybe you should vote for Trump.
Maybe you should go straight to hell STRAIGHT TO HELL!!

Unless Hillary runs again...I'd probably...no never mind, STRAIGHT TO HELL!

Top
#105651 - 06/06/18 03:11 PM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Jango]
Wolfe4086 Offline
Slayer of Goth Booty
***

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 3296
Loc: A Bunker near you
Personally I think the white nationalists are fucking retarded. They idolize an idiot that cost Germany the war. They hate people without getting to know them. Simply because person is X heritage. What also irks me is the idiot leftists that claim people of color can not be racist which is a crock of shit. Just like the idea of white privilege. It is not the color of your skin that extends that privilege it is who is the dominant ethnic group. You will see that no matter where you go.

As for me being a racist I am not. My Wife on her father's side is Chilean and Mapuche. I have friends across ethnicities. Howwever I am against illegal immigration and against the idea of taking in the Migrants in Europe for the following reasons.

!> Security concerns especially when it comes to the 14 years old and up male grouping. We have no real way of knowing who these people really are. Most of them come from countries with barely functioning infrastructure. They can claim anything they want and you have to accept them at face value because if not you are a racist.
2> Economic concerns are another big one since you will have a sizable portion of people that do not speak the language and often have zero marketable skills so someone has to pay for their existence. When I immigrated to Canuckistan my Wife had to sign an agreement that I would not be on social assistance of any kind for a minimum of 2 years. These people are on it the minute they step across the border and say the coached line "MY family is in danger of being murdered by X".
3> It is a slap and spit in the face of every immigrant that is following the law and going though the system. Just because someone hops a border should nor grant them the ability to stay in that country.
4> Resources - Countries have finite resources both economic and physical. If the Open Borders crowd got their wish people would act like locusts coming into countries that are doing well and consuming up the resources until there are none. then they'd move onto the next country that is doing well until the entire world resembles the third world.
_________________________
“We have been God-like in our planned breeding of our domesticated plants and animals, but we have been rabbit-like in our unplanned breeding of ourselves.” Arnold J Toynbee

Top
#105671 - 06/12/18 04:55 PM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Zin]
Fluffi Offline
Short-Arsed Git
*****

Registered: 05/26/10
Posts: 653
Loc: England... Then Left A Bit
SHIT!

How did I miss this one......



(Firstly, I'm not sure how much of Jangos' OP was genuine; and how much was a version of one of Jagds' "deliberately inflammatory posts, just to see if he can get a reaction"
If that was the case Jango, well done! You did it far better than Jagd ever did.
I will respond under the assumption that you are serious......)


Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Jango
Alright, so you know how there's a lot of racists coming out of the woodwork thanks to Trump being a piss poor example of a human being and all? And you know how you’d likely be labeled a racist by all those brainwashed morons who think its racist when, you're just stating fact is all, GOD!

Like, I know the argument for racism because I used to be kind of racist...and still am to a degree tbh, I'm not sure. But…..black people constitute a small fraction of our population yet commit the majority of crimes,


It's not racism to state such facts, despite what the non-white perpetrators of such crimes might say.

I don't know the actual stats for either the US or the UK, because life is too short to spend most of it on Google; but AFAIK about 20% of London is black, and the victims and perpetrators of London knife-crime are predominately black.

Nowadays, there appears to be more black-on-black gang-related violence than there was in the days whe I lived in Tottenham - thus upping the number of black victims; but I am not ashamed to say that when I lived there (37 years ago), I, along with other members of the (Jewish) gang I was a member of took my new wife on a "tour" of the local black-youth meeting spots.
The purpose of the "tour" was to say: "You know us. This is Lucy. Dont fuck with her. If you do, it will go very badly for you."
I didn't feel the need to do this with the other race-based gangs that abounded in this part of north London: The Turks controlled the heroin, but weren't interested in anyone who didn't fuck with their business (they were by-far the most dangerous); the Jews controlled the cocaine, and weren't interested in anything outside of that; the English gangs had prostitution and protection - they could be ridiculously nasty, but only if you went out of your way to annoy them; the black gangs just wanted to be "scary as fuck", and to terrorise all the evil white people who were oppressing them, so they attacked random civilians walking home at night.


Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: Jango

by far, per capita or whatever…they can’t rule themselves, every African nation is a goddamn war-torn mess, take a look at Haiti, let’s talk more about Haiti, and finally…there’s Haiti. Jesus Christ, Haiti.


No need to stress on Haiti.
90% of sub-Saharan Africa is a disaster area - and I write this as a very liberal UK liberal.
It's weird; but I find this more difficult to write than to tell you of my gangland history... It does appear, that when left to themselves, many / most black nations are incapable of governing themselves without resorting to tribal rivalries, resulting in machete-mutilations, beheadings et.al

Originally Posted By: Zin
Originally Posted By: jango


And these “people” aren’t even in the same genome, or something. They lack some specific gene that white people have, probably the one that keeps us all from being a bunch of whiney, self-victimized bitches that, aside from accidentally inventing peanut butter, haven’t done a damn thing for civilization except corrupt it with our existence. Saw it on Discovery.



... nothing to do with genetics.
Some members of 1st-world black populations use the "I am from an oppressed minority" argument, just to see what they can get away with...
... and I am sure that the vast majority of the black population find this as unacceptable as I do.


Originally Posted By: Zin

Mmm... I fuck'n hate identity politics.

But you didn't take it far enough Jango. It's not the genes... It's that they are both from poor areas.




No! No! No!

Years ago, I started a "do you know what it's like to be poor?" thread on this forum.
You were one of the respondents.

Given the obvious "don't know you / don't know if you were bullshitting"; you came across as someone who didn't grow-up in the lap of luxury. Did YOU get involved in the "I'm from a poor area, so I need to resort to crime to get myself out of the ghetto?"
I doubt it.

My reasons for getting involved in gangland are WAY too personal to explain here; but suffice to say, they had nothing to do with getting more money, getting respect, getting out of the ghetto, etc.

That period of my life will always be part of me, part of my history, part of who I am.

HOWEVER; I soon realised that this was probably not a good long-term career option. I went to university as a mature student; got my undergrad degree; got my masters degree; and got a proper job.


Fast-forward to today.... I am in my late '50s, as are all my gangland contemporaries. Some of them still play the game.

A 10-minute conversation with someone on my mobile-phone speed-dial list will get me my old job back with the naughty-people, with a 30K a year pay-rise.

I have chosen NOT to make that call.


It's NOT genetics.
It's NOT poverty.
It's NOT where you were born.

It IS a personal decision. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is lying.



(fucking hell - that was cathartic)


Quote:
Thug life, yo, their popular culture consists of little more than superficial self-promotion, cause life aint nothing but bitches and money, ya’all. Now where da white women at? Etc etc.

Now say that’s all true…and that there’s no other variables to explain anything, blacks just suck really really hard.

Not really. If you are poor then you are fighting with people who are just as desperate as you are to get to where they believe they should be. It's almost sad that it's just "middle class" they are aiming for.

But back to the point... Someone who shows both they are capable AND willing to take actions to make their lives better are more likely to actually do so. It's almost mandatory to show that you are WILLING to do so, and then make sure others know of it. Don't fuck with me. Don't fuck with people I care about.

I mean hell... You get in these larger cities and you see these poor people running around in 100 dollar plus shoes. That is a status symbol... Absolutely. But it's not really what you think it is... It's more about look at them, see how nice they are... *I STILL HAVE THEM* Try to take them from me. This is who I am.

If you are a weak individual running around the poor side of town with shoes like that, you don't get to keep your nice clothes.

Quote:
Well before there was thug life…back when black people were given their freedom…they were slapped around pretty good…beaten, hanged etc for sucking just...so really really hard. White people just fucken hated them, just fucken…oooh, hated them so good. Well, why though? What was there to hate about blacks back then? Aside from them being black, I mean?

They were slaves. They had to pretend, had to KNOW, they were less than human, otherwise who owned them were the monsters. Mogwai if you will.

Quote:
That’s an honest question, I can understand some hatred when there’s something to base it on, but to just really, really hate someone because they’re black?

Nope... Had to hate them because if they didn't, they would have no choice but to hate themselves. Well.. Some of them anyway. There were quite a few I'm sure that would happily just make themselves and their children more well off on the backs of slaves. But pretty sure they were a minority and frankly the type that the rest of us would have run out of society.

It sucks to say, but there were a lot of good people who owned slaves. They really did think they were doing the slaves a favor treating them like they did. Good people, good intentions, can be wrong.

Quote:
In other words, if a racist could ask for something that’s a realistic alternative to the way things are now, what would that something be and how should we go about getting there?

There is no realistic alternative to the question posed. Not at this time anyway.

Quote:
Anyway, that's all. And I'm not going to argue, I don't think, it'd just be interesting as hell to get an honest answer as to what people are thinking.
Maybe there's some event horizon for hate we just need to reach? We wear ourselves out and get too tired to fight anymore?

[/quote]
_________________________

Top
#105672 - 06/13/18 12:54 AM Re: Quick question about racism I always wondered...directed toward anyone. Okay its for Jagd. [Re: Fluffi]
Zin Offline
Sir Sheldon
****

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 4117
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Fluffi
Originally Posted By: Zin

Mmm... I fuck'n hate identity politics.

But you didn't take it far enough Jango. It's not the genes... It's that they are both from poor areas.




No! No! No!

Years ago, I started a "do you know what it's like to be poor?" thread on this forum.
You were one of the respondents.

Given the obvious "don't know you / don't know if you were bullshitting"; you came across as someone who didn't grow-up in the lap of luxury. Did YOU get involved in the "I'm from a poor area, so I need to resort to crime to get myself out of the ghetto?"
I doubt it.

Yes and no... I was a thief. A very good one. Now... I knew we didn't have much money, but... I never really felt *poor*

But I did steal. I seriously doubt that they could get me now on this... So... Of course I stole alcohol, cigs, and what not... But I also stole my whole damn book collection. Whoa... Gangster right?

Yeah... see... You still had to have money for the ladies. And my smart, and dumb, ass figured out how to steal from ATM's. Of course you also had the Walmart specials where you stole from one store and took it to another for cash out... But. The ATM's were the ones that I knew it would have been a REAL BAD DEAL. Good news... You could never take out more than your daily limit on the card. So.. I seriously doubt I stole more than five figures that way... But hey... Party was on me every other weekend. ( Keep in mind I stole from the bank, not whoever was on the card )

There are no true *gangs* where I live. But it was known pretty quick into my ... Changing into an adult stage I guess, that I wasn't one to be fucked with. If you wanted to fight, say so... Lets skip the insults and just get to it. I'll ask why when we are done, and if I lose... We aren't done. We'll do it again... And when I feel I've won, we'll talk about why it happened.

No choice... We were going to talk about why it happened, and why they were stupid. Well, actually... there were a few times I apologized. Hardly the norm though.

But honestly... I really ... Well.. compared to most people I got into a lot of fights. But frankly after the first year everyone pretty much left me alone. I don't want it to sound like I was getting into a lot of fights my whole teenage years... I didn't. I had a lot in a short period of time.

I had family who was into dealing drugs. Now... I don't know much about that whole world. I did actually go on a couple drug runs, that I didn't know at the time...

*ponders*

Lets just say that if you see someone delivering newspapers in a really nice vehicle... There might be more going on than meets the eye.

Was I some sort of crime lord? No.. Hell no. Was I in a ghetto? Again... no.

But if you are smarter than the people around you, bored to tears because you have nothing... And see others doing things that you wish you could.

Quote:
My reasons for getting involved in gangland are WAY too personal to explain here; but suffice to say, they had nothing to do with getting more money, getting respect, getting out of the ghetto, etc.

That period of my life will always be part of me, part of my history, part of who I am.

HOWEVER; I soon realised that this was probably not a good long-term career option. I went to university as a mature student; got my undergrad degree; got my masters degree; and got a proper job.

I was... Late teens, pretty sure I wasn't 18 yet... Someone caught me stealing. No shit they caught me dead to rights stealing. I went years stealing things and never got caught...

HE CAUGHT ME. And never said a word. I even walked out with what I stole. I don't know his name, I never saw him again. Which is odd considering I lived in a town of 12k. His was the only grocery store there was.

Tore myself up trying to figure out why he'd let me go. Then... Fuck it. I don't know why, I'll never know why. WHY is important. But... I figure out of respect for him... I've never stolen anything since.

It's *possible* that man stopped me from joining in on the family business of... Delivering papers I guess you could say. Maybe. I seriously doubt I would have stayed in the drug business. Feeling pity for people is exhausting. Not sure I could have handled it as a career.

But... Never stole again.


Quote:
Fast-forward to today.... I am in my late '50s, as are all my gangland contemporaries. Some of them still play the game.

A 10-minute conversation with someone on my mobile-phone speed-dial list will get me my old job back with the naughty-people, with a 30K a year pay-rise.

I have chosen NOT to make that call.

Yeah... I've had my old boss call me up several times trying to get me to come work for him again at another company doing Quality work again. That's only a 6k raise, but it's a legit job.

But... I get to hold that over my current jobs head. I told them during my interview, and a couple times since... I don't need this job. I worked for myself for years, and made it although it wasn't exactly smooth sailing. I have an old boss who wants me to go work for him with a pay raise. How much am I worth to you?

They keep giving me raises.


Quote:
It's NOT genetics.
It's NOT poverty.
It's NOT where you were born.

It IS a personal decision. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is lying.

I agree. However situations DO matter. I truly do believe that if I was actually born into the middle/upper class I would have had the things to keep me preoccupied/interested to not do many of the things I had done. If I was in a different situation, I would have different choices. Obviously different factors in which to gauge those choices.

I agree it's a personal decision.

But it IS genetics.
It IS poverty.
It IS where you were born.

And a great many other factors as well. Personal decisions are based on available information, current situation, and what you *think* you can live with or without.

Top


Who's Online
0 registered (), 31 Zombies and 0 Big Icky Spiders that are going to bite Viv online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod, Specuuul
Moderator:  Dani, Thor, Trillian, vivian 
Recent OT Topics
God I barely remembered this place..
by tyler_durden
Today at 12:51 AM
carpool karaoke
by Trillian
06/28/18 06:25 PM
Anyone else unliking lot of Facebook groups
by Wolfe4086
06/25/18 01:58 PM
I hate the
by Aran
03/27/18 10:37 PM
Featured Member
Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 1866
Top Posters
Ellehcim 6276
baraka66 5375
Flora Green 5310
Ellisande 5132
Sawo 4782
Gallery
Phoenix Pictures

Newest Members
Ebersol, Litza, Chuyangher, toyota, mgelinas
191 Registered Users